[wguion]

There is a listing for a 1925 Simson now on Guns International titled 1925 DATED SIMSON/SUHL GERMAN LUGER RIG W/ 2 MATCHING # MAGAZINES - RARE Listing #: 101198241, Seller's Inventory #: 19- 651. Price $4,000.

It has a serial number 651. Per Ed Tinker's book, that would make it a 1926, not a 1925. Fake date???


William

 

[03man]

Would be close enough to the 1925/1926 break for me to believe it could have a 1925 dated receiver.

Since the 1926s are scarcer, makes no sense for someone to "add" the more common date. JMHO.

I've added a picture of the chamber date so it won't be lost when the ad disappears.

 

[Edward Tinker]

I did not have this one listed AND something to keep in mind - highest dated 1925 is sn 595 - lowest dated 1926 is sn 608 and then 616 - my one thought on timelines is that I think they made the first 10,000 much quicker than I believed, nothing concrete except some comments from some collectors who collect other items. As an example, in rifles, there are 1924 dated Simson rifles (rare) but no pistols. Also, Krieghoff made 10,000 to fill their order quickly - It doesn't stretch my imagination that this made sense financially.

If it had been a 651a that was changed, than I'd expect the acceptance markings to look like this
630a E6 E81 E67 E67 E
638a
645a E6 E81 E67 E67 E
682a
685a E6 E81 E67 E67 E

It is possible, but I'd expect to see some Eagle RC's on it. Would like to see it in person, look at the stamps and ensure they are not pantographed.

I have swapped out one dated in the pdf comparison and put this one in - like I said, I'd want to look at it close, although the price is sure decent for a dated simson with two mags (I noticed they are not shown)

 

[Pete E.]

Hot link to Walt Smeddy's offering :

https://www.gunsinternational.com/g...-matching-magazines-rare.cfm?gun_id=101198241

Besides the date stamping concern, the Simson toggle marking on this one probably warrants a closer look :
.
.

 

[Edward Tinker]

and Pete, the serial number on the grips is up and down, instead of across (left to right)

 

[norme]

I don't think this seller is smart enough to fake a gun. Replacing grips, renumbering mags and refinishing is/are more his speed.
Norm

 

[03man]

I don't think this seller is smart enough to fake a gun. Replacing grips, renumbering mags and refinishing is/are more his speed.
Norm

I agree; but he may actually believe he has the real deal- he scours the auctions and buys what appear to be valuable but questionable(to me) lugers if the price is cheap- just click on "bid history" sometime- and you will see Mr. Luger is a bidder/buyer.

Never buy from anyone who includes : "and based on my own knowledge" !

 

[Jeff H]

I bought this gun!

First time forum user, first time Luger owner. I bought this gun because I have always wanted a P08, and it looked good. I see from this thread that it may be fake. Other forums say the 1925 serial number only goes to 500, others say 600, this forum seems to say 700. I am including pictures, you guys take a look and let me know what you think, fake or not. If fake how can you tell and what was it before it was faked? If fake or not I like it and will keep it.

 

[Edward Tinker]

This forum does not say that - it was suggested it is 'possible'.

I personally believe (give or take a few) that

1925 is less than sn 600
1926 is less than sn 700

I own 701 and its not dated

 

[Edward Tinker]

Latest listing is here

Serial Number	Proofs # & types	Date	Toggle	Police	Comments
525		1925	Simson & Co Suhl
542	E6 E33 E6 E	1925	Simson & Co Suhl	no
567	E6 E6 E6 E	1925	Simson & Co Suhl
570	E6 E33 E6 E	1925	Simson & Co Suhl	no	96/97 % possible reblue - 1 matching magazine
595		1925	Simson & Co Suhl	no
608	E6 E33 E6 E	1926	Simson & Co Suhl	no
616	E6 E33 E6 E	1926	Simson & Co Suhl	no	Unit marked 4/R.R.1.48
634	e6 E6 E33 E6 E	1926	Simson & Co Suhl	no
637	e6 E6 E33 E6 E	1926	Simson & Co Suhl	no	4″ 9mm bbl. “1926” above chamber. “Simson & Co Suhl” on center toggle link. Eagle/6 Proofs. Proper serial range which is in the 600’s. Checkered walnut grips are unnumbered. All numbered parts are matching including the magazine, which has been re-numbered to match the gun. This gun is featured on pp. 444, 467, 477, and 723 of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess’ The Borchardt & Luger Automatic Pistols. PROVENANCE: Collection of Dr. Geoffrey Sturgess. CONDITION: Excellent. Appears to have been professionally refinished many years ago and has aged to 95% blue and 75% straw. Bore is frosted. Grips are sharp with minor dings and chips to the checkering. Magazine is excellent.
651	E6 E33 E6 E	1925	Simson & Co Suhl	no	out of sequence 1926 - fake date? Looks correct in pictures seen
647		1926	Simson & Co Suhl	no
656	E6 E33 E6 E	1926	Simson & Co Suhl	no
657	E6 E33 E6 E	1926	Simson & Co Suhl	no	"RC" mark on barrel
684	E6 E33 E6 E	1926	Simson & Co Suhl	no
701	E6 E33 E6 E	no	Simson & Co Suhl
720		no	Simson & Co Suhl	no

 

[03man]

Jeff,
Welcome. Very good pictures- thanks for posting them.

I don't think anyone said it was "fake", just some things didn't follow the norm.
While I think an "out of sequence" 1925 is possible, Ed does not- and he wrote the book.
I'm pretty sure the grips have been "boosted", i.e. the numbers and acceptance added recently- the markings are too crisp and the numbers run the wrong way.

I suggest you buy the book- "Simson Lugers"- read, study, and make up your own mind.
Ed may still have copies to sell.

I do own both a genuine(#248) and a "fake' 1925 dated Simson.

Pictured below, the date on the "boosted or fake" 1925 is stamped too high on the receiver and the serial number is in the 4000 range- way too high.


The 1925 on your #651 appears to be somewhere in between.
Notice the difference in the font of the 9 and 2, between yours and my # 248.

 

[Jeff H]

Yes i see what you are referring to. I would think that Simson would have more than one set of stamps, that would very slightly, and more than one person stamping them that may place the date higher or lower than someone else. If they are fakes what would someone fake it from? Can you tell if the proof marks are fake also? I am just trying to get information so i can identify a fake in the future.

Thanks

 

[JD]

First thing is get all the white paint out of the marks. (not the safety area, that should have paint) It is the best stuff to camo a fake mark. I think you will then see the date is panto graphed if fake.

 

[Jeff H]

First thing is get all the white paint out of the marks. (not the safety area, that should have paint) It is the best stuff to camo a fake mark. I think you will then see the date is panto graphed if fake.

What is the best approach to get the white paint out?

 

[Edward Tinker]

Try oil and a toothbrush - easy first and go from there. Likely just lacquer stick or grease pencil.

Don - I am not a 'never believe' that the germans wouldn't do this or that. I think that Simson started making and collecting tools to make P08's in 1924 when the contract was signed. Since they had to adapt and fix any tooling they got from Erfurt, while the rifles were made in WW1 by Simson - so you see 1924 dated rifles, and then 1925 and 1926, then no dates.

You never know what you can find with weimar guns - so is it possible that you see a dated out of sequence. I just think its unlikely - HOWEVER, one that is close to the date is easier to believe than one that is 300-400 off (or more).

A nice close up can at least see if a likely a stamp or an engraving (pantograph)

Ed

 

[Jeff H]

Well i have the white paint out. What is it Pentograph or stamp?

 

[03man]

I believe it is pantographed.
The ends of the cuts are round, and the top of the one is especially noticeable as it extends above the downward left stroke; as is the tail of the "9" and the last down bit at the top of the "5". The ends of the "2" should be square, not round.

I can see ghosts of another date , below and a little lower.

One can also see that the height of the chamber has been reduced on the top, notice how the edge becomes thinner and less rounded than either side.

My opinion is that it is not an original 1925 stamping ; that and a dollar will get you a drink at MacDonald's.

I would have been or would still be happy to sell you my fake 1925 for half of the $4000 at Mr. Luger.

Your pictures are excellent! Well done.

 

[mouser]

Looks like a pantographed number to me. Look at the ends of the numbers - if stamped, it would be squared off, if pantographed - rounded. All of these numbers have rounded ends. I think, I can even see the swirls from the rotary cutter in some of the numbers..

 

[Jeff H]

Thanks for all your help.