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Discussion Starter #1
Stumbled across this one...again...while checking the auction coming up in September.

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/_C__RARE_KREIGSMARINE_NORTH_SEA_ISSUED_SLOTTED_POL-LOT473343.aspx

It is the same one mauser1937 posted about back in 2016 from Gunbroker.

https://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?45345-Pre-alfa-Kriegsmarine-P35-Radom-on-Gun-Broker&highlight=kriegsmarine+radom

It's about as correct as their spelling.



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It does not surprise me that it is showing up elsewhere. someone is trying to unload it. I am not sure if it originally sold in 2016 on GB or not. what is a shame is that auction houses that are to be reputable accept guns like these for the auction. I have noticed others like Rock Island selling guns with obvious problems. and unlike a site like GB where you can negotiate an inspection period, with an auction house it is sold "AS-IS" which then a auction house should turn away obvious problem pieces. but they do not.
 

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Sam, Auction houses are in business to make money. Their customers are the ones selling, not the buyers. They aren't going to turn away anyone who is providing the items that puts money in their pockets. It is always on the buyer to know what they are paying for and if they don't, they have no one to blame but themselves. This is where investors get taken when they rely on the advice of "experts" on what to buy without doing their homework. It has always been this way and I don't see it changing. That is why sites like this are such a great asset for new collectors if they take the time to learn before they rush to buy. One glance at that marking would make any knowledgeable collector turn quickly away.

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Some Auction Houses do desire to keep a high reputation. In the past, Rock Island had some fake German identity papers at auction. Being an author and with supporting information about current sales, I contacted them. They not only ended the sale of the fake items, they ended the sale of all the items the person had sent for the auction. No Auction House knows everything, so sometimes they need a helping hand.
Jeff
 

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Burgess, I agree that is exactly the best thing about this site. there is a tremendous amount of Knowledge here to help others understand what they have and what they do not have. I guess, this is just one of those sore subjects on my part. People, or in this case an auction house, who purport themselves as experts passing along obvious fakes and they hide behind the vague law by saying in their description they never mention that its legitimate, just that it is KM marked, which is a true statement. But, I do suppose you have that with any auction house. I was at an auction which had a lot of German memorabilia because the guy was a ww2 vet. I bought quite a few items. however among all the real items were a couple fake HJ armbands. The auctioneer never said they were real, just that they were Nazi armbands. With all the other stuff which was authentic there, the buyers assumed they were legit as well.
 

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A goodly number of fake Radoms, Lugers etc came out of PA. Some years ago I purchased a Navy marked Radom from a gentleman from PA who had set up at NGD. I live 1-1/2 hour away from the show. Went home researched it & went back the next day & got my money back. It helped that there were a few at his table looking at his stuff & he did not want a commotion. Over the years I would see other fake or re-worked examples on his table, but I never purchased from him again.
 

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Some Auction Houses do desire to keep a high reputation. In the past, Rock Island had some fake German identity papers at auction. Being an author and with supporting information about current sales, I contacted them. They not only ended the sale of the fake items, they ended the sale of all the items the person had sent for the auction. No Auction House knows everything, so sometimes they need a helping hand.
Jeff
Jeff, That has not been my experience with RIA. I have contacted them at least 2x about items they had listed with a description was at the very least misleading. One of the items has been repeatedly listed since with no change to the description. Which tells me they are just waiting for a low knowledge buyer to come along. When you say in the past I wonder how long ago that would of been. I agree they need a helping hand but I don't see that as an excuse when it is your business to deal with these items and the reputation of your business is at stake. Also there is no incentive to educate them. A smaller auction house is less accountable but only because they do not have the resources a large house should have. The bottom line is buyer beware. If you know what you are buying you are less likely to make a mistake or be taken advantage of.


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Has anyone done a photographic study of genuine vs fake eagle/m? That would be nice for any collector...Bill
 

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FWIW I have had a great experience with James D Julia's in the past when they had listed an item as original finish that I did not realize was not original until I won the auction and inspected the item at my FFL. I do not know if the philosophy is still the same since they were purchased/merged by Morphy's though. You absolutely should do your due diligence, ask for more pictures, info before purchasing but I was glad the situation was not a complete loss after I realized the error that was made.
 

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I agree Sam.
 

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Yap, that is the same one. I was thinking about throwing quick post about it but glad you did....
Also any opinions about BNZ Radom that recently was sold on GB by Legacy Collectibles ?
My opinion - faked BNZ
1) Acceptance proofs and firing proof slightly polished in close pictures
2) Grips darkened - not original color
3) Finish restored

I believe for this to be just 2k serial that had original legend removed and " bnz" added instead...

Those are my obserwations but maybe I am wrong

pix127151960.jpg pix188723859.jpg pix281134402.jpg pix861533364.jpg pix947321937.jpg


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I don't know enough about the BNZs to give my opinion, but I will say that I live about 30 minutes from Legacy and Tom is one of the rare good ones. I've done business with him on several occasions, and if something isn't right about a gun he'll either do whatever he can to fix the situation (bought a Kriegsmarine Hsc that had the wrong magazine with it and he swapped it out no questions asked) or at the at the very least answer questions even if it means losing the sale. Thought I saw a crack on the stock of a rifle I was interested in and asked for a close up of it and he even said that yes it was a crack and sent several pictures of it. I also remember the post stated that they weren't sure about the finish on it and pretty much just put it up to let gunbroker determine the value which I would assume they weren't too sure of it either. I can validate that Tom honestly does try to do right by his customers...which is more then I can say about most dealers now a days.
 

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Is it up to those who do know what is a fake to contact the auction house and point out what signs they see? I wouldn't be able to spot fakes in most handguns but am pretty familiar with many fountain pens which is another area rife with fakes. I try to contact the company selling the item when I find one and in most cases they have closed the sale.

Of course today it's easy to simply open a new account under a different name and try to sell the item again.
 

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I don't know enough about the BNZs to give my opinion, but I will say that I live about 30 minutes from Legacy and Tom is one of the rare good ones. I've done business with him on several occasions, and if something isn't right about a gun he'll either do whatever he can to fix the situation (bought a Kriegsmarine Hsc that had the wrong magazine with it and he swapped it out no questions asked) or at the at the very least answer questions even if it means losing the sale. Thought I saw a crack on the stock of a rifle I was interested in and asked for a close up of it and he even said that yes it was a crack and sent several pictures of it. I also remember the post stated that they weren't sure about the finish on it and pretty much just put it up to let gunbroker determine the value which I would assume they weren't too sure of it either. I can validate that Tom honestly does try to do right by his customers...which is more then I can say about most dealers now a days.

I agree with your assessment of Tom. 5 years ago, I was set up at the SOS show. I was interested in a couple of his PPKs. So he brought 4 over to my table, left them & told me to let him know which one I wanted. A friend (now a turd of an ex-friend) was visiting with me at my table.

The friend also looked at the PPKs. I decided on one and took the other 3 back to Tom & told him that I would pay him the next day at the NGD show.

Saw him the next day, paid him & he told me that the ex-friend had come to his table the prior day (after I decided which PPK I wanted) and offered him $250 more for the PPK. Tom had refused the offer as I had 1st choice.

It would have been very easy for Tom to have sold the pistol to m ex-friend and told me that it was sold to a prior looker. But Tom is honest.
 

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I do agree that Tom is great person to deal with and one of very few out there that will keep his word and very knowledgeable about what he has. We have been dealing with each other for many years without smallest issues or disappointments !
Question I had was about authenticity of this particular BNZ Radom, Tom gave his honest opinion about being not sure about this one so question still remains if piece is correct or not, regardless who was selling it and who bought it.
Pistol has several "red" flags this is why I brought it to forum members attention.
Michal
 

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I do agree that Tom is great person to deal with and one of very few out there that will keep his word and very knowledgeable about what he has. We have been dealing with each other for many years without smallest issues or disappointments !
Question I had was about authenticity of this particular BNZ Radom, Tom gave his honest opinion about being not sure about this one so question still remains if piece is correct or not, regardless who was selling it and who bought it.
Pistol has several "red" flags this is why I brought it to forum members attention.
Michal


I have a bnz that is lower than the range set forth in the books and it is blued, not phosphate. Also have a phosphate bnz. I also have 2 'blank' slide Radoms, (both phosphate) one within the range given in the books and one the is about 4,000 numbers higher than the given range.

None of them came thru an auction house.

Hard to tell about the one mentioned above. That period in Radom production was unsettled. I would have to have it in my hand before I would venture an opinion.
 

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Just so every one knows we have pulled this pistol from our auction. We here at Morphy Auctions strives to do the right thing. We do guarantee all of our descriptions, so we do appreciate your guys knowledge and calling out any discrepancies. If you have any questions please give us a call.
 

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Russ is a long time member and close friend of many folks, myself included, his word is good.

He works at Morphys and he doesn't do all weapons, but many I believe.

Ed
 

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russ is a long time member and close friend of many folks, myself included, his word is good.

He works at morphys and he doesn't do all weapons, but many i believe.

Ed
ditto!
 
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