[Guest]

Need some advice here. A good friend has a gunshop near me. Walked in for .22 ammo and fainted...He has a Finn Lahti 9mm # 75xx. What series is this? Looks pretty mint /good finish left. Its on consignment for......1,400.00 Yep. That's with the store 20% added in.
He will let me take a dig pic I think. I know this is high right? Would like to get one of these that are coming in on another post. This is not going any where fast I think. No one really knows its there yet. I would offer a thousand. Just don't know. I do want to shoot my L35 if I ever get one. So I don't need a 1st or 2nd series, just a good shooter and some history to it. Opinions ?
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Here it is : It does say Valment on top/ I just shot these pics an hour before my edit to this post See it below . No import mark. 1400.00 is the seller asking amount,I would have to start at the other end for sure. Shop would take any trade-ins.That's cool. I do like these pistols. 2nd one in 30yrs I have touched.

 

[Jan C Still]

Bob
Based on the serial range in Axis Pistols it is not in the Fin
military Lahti range. It may be a commercial or post war rebuild. Is it marked Valmet or VKT+L-35 on the top of the slide? Does it have a stock lug? Quite a few of the commercials(Valmet & no stock lug)) were imported years ago and a price of $1400 is very high. Less than a $1000 seems more reasonable. The militaries go for significantly more than the commercials.

Some of the folks on this forum may have more complete military serial range and pricing information. Unfortunatley many of them are at the SOS (Gun Show in Kentucky) this weekend.
Jan

 

[JTV]

quote:Originally posted by Jan C Still

Bob
Based on the serial range in Axis Pistols it is not in the Fin
military Lahti range. It may be a commercial or post war rebuild. Is it marked Valmet or VKT+L-35 on the top of the slide? Does it have a stock lug? Quite a few of the commercials(Valmet & no stock lug)) were imported years ago and a price of $1400 is very high. Less than a $1000 seems more reasonable. The militaries go for significantly more than the commercials.

Some of the folks on this forum may have more complete military serial range and pricing information. Unfortunatley many of them are at the SOS (Gun Show in Kentucky) this weekend.
Jan

Correct. It looks quite typical L-35 of series 4 (no "curve" at shape at top of the slide, no stock attachment lug and it has loaded chamber indicator) made for commercial sales at early 1950's. Serial numbers of series 4 run about 6800 to 9300, the loaded chamber indicator was left off after serial number 8000 or so. Markings on top of the slide should read "VALMET" and "L-35". These pistols were not used by Finnish military and indeed most were sold directly abroad (Getting permit for 9 x 19 pistol was very difficult for most Finns at that time). However 600 of these pistols were delivered to Israeli military at early 1950's (so I suggest checking if it has any interesting markings). Looks like it should make a good shooter, but without even knowing the exact level of US prices, what they ask seems absurd (these cost around 500 - 700 euros in Finland).

 

[RCL]

Adams guns has/had one for sale on Gunsamerica.com for a very long time for $995.

The $1,400 price tag seems very high to me.

 

[Pancho]

Help.
I have been gathering some confusing info on Lahtis, and would appreciate any help with these questions:

Finn Questions:
The Ser. # on the Adams Finn Lahti is 746x, and he says "an earlier variation with loaded chamber indicator without stock lug".

Question 1: Did both pre-war and post-war Finn Lahtis have a loaded chamber indicator without a stock lug?
Question 2: Did only the WW2 Finn Lahti LACK a loaded chamber indicator and HAVE a stock lug?

Swede Questions:
Question 3: What is the serial number range for a WW2 Swede Lahti L-40 ?
Question 4: What are some of the identifying marks/characteristics of the WW2 Swede L40?

Dane Questions:
Question 5: What is the serial number range for a WW2 Dane Lahti ?
Question 6: Were the Dane Lahtis L40 or L35 ?
Question 7: What are some of the identifying marks/characteristics of the WW2 Dane Lahti ?

Lastly:
I have Axis pistols for Ser. #s and markings/characteristics on he Finn WW2 L-40, but...
Question #8: Is there a book on the Lahti that would include info on the WW2 Finn, Swede, and Dane variations ?

 

[Pete E.]

Here is the link to Bob Adam's site :

http://www.adamsguns.com/0p.htm

 

[JTV]

quote:Originally posted by Pancho

Help.
I have been gathering some confusing info on Lahtis, and would appreciate any help with these questions:

Finn Questions:
The Ser. # on the Adams Finn Lahti is 746x, and he says "an earlier variation with loaded chamber indicator without stock lug".

I try answering the ones I know.

L-35 of series 0 - 3 had both loaded chamber indicators and stock lugs. Series 4 didn't have stock lugs anymore. Loaded chamber indicators were left off in middle of series 4 production (as mentioned around serial number 8000). Basically the Adams L-35 746x seems quite typical series 4 also. However the replacement slides (new slides made as replacements for broken ones) complicate the matter: Some replacement slide series were made with loaded chamber indicators, while others didn't have it. Because of this it is now possible to find L-35 belonging with serial number much lower then 8000 without loaded chamber indicator.

Check this page in my website for more information:
http://ankkurinvarsi.com/jaeger/PISTOLS1.htm

quote:
Question 1: Did both pre-war and post-war Finn Lahtis have a loaded chamber indicator without a stock lug?

Question 2: Did only the WW2 Finn Lahti LACK a loaded chamber indicator and HAVE a stock lug?

First: Kind of a depends what you consider pre-war or post-war. Very little L-35 were made before Winter War (Nov 1939 - March 1940) - Only field test series (also known as "series 0") with serial numbers 1006 - 1104 were made before it. The rest could be considered wartime or post-war production. Generally speaking Finnish literature considers ending of Continuation War (June 1941 - Sept 1944) as end of war and everything done after it as post-war, but one could also consider end of Lapland War (Sept 1944 - 25th April 1945) as "end of war". This is because converting production of Finnish wartime industry to more peaceful products started immediately once Continuation War ended.

If we consider ending of Continuation War at September of 1944 as "end of war", then L-35 with serial numbers over 5800 or so are "post-war". However all series 3 (serial numbers up to 6800 or so) have these same characteristics also.

In this case:
Yes, all pre-war, wartime and series 3 post-war pistols (assembling of series 3 L-35 pistols continued until late 1945) had loaded chamber indicators and stock lugs. However if the slide of such pistol was broken, the replacement slide necessarily didn't have loaded chamber indicator.

And no, wartime Finn Lahti L-35 definetely had both loaded chamber indicator and stock lug.

quote:
Dane Questions:
Question 6: Were the Dane Lahtis L40 or L35 ?

They were Swedish made L-40. BTW: Swedes delivered L-40 also to Norway.

quote:
Lastly:
I have Axis pistols for Ser. #s and markings/characteristics on he Finn WW2 L-40, but...

No such a thing. Finns manufactured and used only L-35 made by VKT (= Valtion Kivaaritehdas = State Rifle Factory) in city of Jyvaskyla at Finland. After WW2 the same factory was renamed as Valmet Tourula Factories (= Valmet Tourulan tehtaat).

quote:
Question #8: Is there a book on the Lahti that would include info on the WW2 Finn, Swede, and Dane variations ?

Sorry, no idea. There are some quite good ones about Finnish L-35, but basically they are all in Finnish. Only "Suomalaiset Sotilaskasiaseet 1918 - 1988 / Military Small Arms in Finland 1918 - 1988" book series have summaries and captions in English also. All the others don't have a word in English.

Have visited this website already:
http://hem.bredband.net/b102212/Handguns.html

 

[Jan C Still]

Jarkko
Your website is an outstanding source of information on Finnish arms. Thanks for the detailed reply.
Jan

 

[Pancho]

Jarkko,
Great website and info.
Here is a link to my website: http://www.panchogun.com/
I hope that it can provide you with some info that would help make up the debt I owe you for your help. Since there are not any Lahti books in English, your generous help is of great value to the collectors in the U.S. of A..

Need a bit more info to clarify some WW2 serial number data.
Do you have any info that would answer the following questions?

Regarding Swede M-40:
As I understand, of the 100,000 M-40's produced by Sweden,
60,000 were war time, and 40,000 were postwar.
Do you know the Ser.# of last WW2 M40, to clarify when WW2 production ended ?

Regarding Dane M-40 WW2 contract purchase from Sweden:
Were all of the "D" prefix pistols part of the WW2 contract?
Was there any Post WW2 purchase made by Denmark ?
What is the last "D" prefix serial number purchased in WW2 ?

Thanks,
Pancho

 

[JTV]

quote:Originally posted by Jan C Still

Jarkko
Your website is an outstanding source of information on Finnish arms. Thanks for the detailed reply.
Jan

Thanks. Lately the updates have concentrated to bit heavier weapons - the next update I am working on will include heavy field guns (105 - 122 mm) and portable flamethrowers.

 

[JTV]

quote:Originally posted by Pancho

Jarkko,
Great website and info.
Here is a link to my website: http://www.panchogun.com/
I hope that it can provide you with some info that would help make up the debt I owe you for your help. Since there are not any Lahti books in English, your generous help is of great value to the collectors in the U.S. of A..

Need a bit more info to clarify some WW2 serial number data.
Do you have any info that would answer the following questions?

Regarding Swede M-40:
As I understand, of the 100,000 M-40's produced by Sweden,
60,000 were war time, and 40,000 were postwar.
Do you know the Ser.# of last WW2 M40, to clarify when WW2 production ended ?

Regarding Dane M-40 WW2 contract purchase from Sweden:
Were all of the "D" prefix pistols part of the WW2 contract?
Was there any Post WW2 purchase made by Denmark ?
What is the last "D" prefix serial number purchased in WW2 ?

Thanks,
Pancho

Thanks. I am sorry to say the Finnish books just barely mention L-40. However I am about to visit library Finnish Military Collage later today (have to try finding some more information about artillery ammunition for my website), so I might check if they have something.

 

[JTV]

Pancho,

Unfortunately I didn't manage any good source about Swedish M/40 pistol yesterday. There were some books dealing with Swedish weaponry, but none was detailed enough to give production information or serial number ranges of M/40 pistol.

Maybe somebody at Swedish Military Firearms Forum could help?:
http://www.gunboards.com/forums/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=40

 

[Dgiz]

JTV,
I have read about the Winter War and the Continuation War, but what are the details of the Lapland War? Who was in this and what was it all about?
Dean

 

[Dgiz]

I did find a little info. The Finnish had signed a non-aggression agreement with the Russians and then fought the Germans to get them to leave their country? (Part of the agreement with Russia). Am I close?
Thanks, Dean

 

[JTV]

quote:Originally posted by Dgiz

I did find a little info. The Finnish had signed a non-aggression agreement with the Russians and then fought the Germans to get them to leave their country? (Part of the agreement with Russia). Am I close?
Thanks, Dean

Yes, that is correct. The main reason for Lapland War was in terms of Finnish-Soviet armistance/peace agreement of 1944 (The final peace treaty was signed at 1947 in Paris). Continuation War (Finns vs. Soviets) ended to armistace at 5th of September 1944. In armitance/peace agreemtn Soviets demanded German troops to leave Finland in impossibly short amount of time (by 15th of September 1944). If the the Germans would not retreat by that time then the Finns were required to intern them. Only way the Germans could have maybe retreated in time would have been by leaving all their war-materials behind, which they were not willing to do (the Finnish-Soviet armistance agreement also demanded the Finns to deliver all previous German property located in Finland to Soviets).

Having yet recently fought at the same side Finnish and German military were not overly eager to start fighting each other (especially as it was quite easy to see that the WW2 probably would last long anymore). So, first Finnish and German officers organised a phony war to start: Germans would retreat little by little, Finnish artillery would fire few shells to abandoned German positions and then Finns would "capture" the area. This worked well for couple of days until the Soviets find out about it and demanded the Finns to start fighting for real or else... The deadline at Soviet ultimatum was 1st of October 1944 - In that day Finnish troops made landing to harbour of Tornio behind Soviet lines and real large-scale battles at Lapland between Germans and Finns begun.

Anyway, the first battle between Finns and Germans was not fought at Lapland but in Suursaari Island at Finnish Gulf (of Baltic Sea), which the Germans had attacked already at morning in 15th of September (Germans lost the battle and Finns got some 1,200 POW).

The battles in Lapland were mainly Germans delaying Finns. Germans used scorched earth tactic in Finnish Lapland burning all buildings to the ground, exploding all bridges and destroying even telephone polls while at the same time laying huge number of landmines and booby traps everywhere. Finns had hard time attacking as Finnish field army had to demobilised at the same time - leaving much smaller army of less experienced recruites to fight the Germans with. Using heavy weaponry was also very difficult for the Finns because of all destroyed bridges and heavily mined roads. Finally the last German unit retreated to Norway at 25th of April 1945 and the Lapland War ended. Soviets also had taken part by advacing to Finnish Lapland after the Germans (they advanced so far as Ivalo, before returning to their own border). The relations between Soviet and Finnish troops at Finnish Lapland were quite strained during Lapland War, but luckily there there were no serious incidents between them. All German POWs and captured German equipment that Finns captured were transported to Soviet Union. Because of scorched earth tactics the Germans were not exactly popular among Finns living in Lapland for several decades.

This webpage has animated showing development of frontline:
http://www.koulukanava.fi/historia/ww2/jatkosot/lappi.htm

Germans had bit over 200,000 men in Finnish Lapland at 1944, but maybe only about quarter of them (some 50,000) took part in battles. Finnish troops in Lapland War never were larger then 75,000 men. Both sides lost about 1,000 men dead. About 2,900 Finnish soldiers were wounded, while number of German wounded was around 2,500.

 

[Dgiz]

JTV,
WOW, great info. I feel like I just had a great history lesson! I think I read a little about this in the book "Black Edelweiss" by Johann Voss. About the SS Mountain troops. He was with a unit that had to withdraw from Finland (Operation Birch). If I remember correctly, they were also afraid of the Swedish firing on them if they got too close to the border. Tough life!
As far as pistol production and use goes, I think I would count that as part of WW2.
Would make my third variation L-35, serial number 6604 a wartime pistol? Am I reaching?
Thanks again, I love the history.
Dean

 

[JTV]

quote:Originally posted by Dgiz

JTV,
WOW, great info. I feel like I just had a great history lesson! I think I read a little about this in the book "Black Edelweiss" by Johann Voss. About the SS Mountain troops. He was with a unit that had to withdraw from Finland (Operation Birch). If I remember correctly, they were also afraid of the Swedish firing on them if they got too close to the border. Tough life!
As far as pistol production and use goes, I think I would count that as part of WW2.
Would make my third variation L-35, serial number 6604 a wartime pistol? Am I reaching?
Thanks again, I love the history.
Dean

Many Swedes were not thinking particularly happy thoughts about Germans in that time either. The relations between Finns and Swedes acroos the border were very friendly. Civilian population of Finnish Lapland for the large part escaped battles by fleeing to Sweden (Swedes allowed Finnish civilians to enter their country and organised commodation and food for them). Burning of the towns and villages closest to border was very visible to Swedish side of the border so Swedes were very much aware of the devestation Germans were creating in Finnish side of the border. I have not heard about Swedes firing at German ground troops, but German aircraft doing the mistake of crossing the border usually got really warm welcome from Swedish AA-artillery units.

It is hard to say if L-35 with serial number 6604 is wartime or not. The last L-35 pistols delivered during Continuation War had serial numbers around 5800. More L-35 with serial numbers around 5800 - 6800 were assembled at 1945, but how many of them were assembled before and how many after ending of Lapland War (at April 1945) is not certain. What is known for certain is that last L-35 delivered to Finnish military at 1945 had serial number 6731. So according serial number your L-35 was definetely among those delivered to Finnish military at year 1945, but I dont' have enough information to say if it was assembled before 25th of April of that year or later.