[taudelt]

Saw a very interesting gun today at a little show in downstate Ohio. It was your basic G date with both original matching mags with E/154 acceptance stamps but numbered 1 and 2 above the SN. No sear safety or mag safety. The SN was 8xxx c. Not trying to be coy but I didn't write down the SN until after the guy left (without accepting my pretty decent offer) and he never came back around so I could get the number. I guess the question is has anybody else run into what I would call normal Army guns that just picked up police mag numbering??

 

[Edward Tinker]

Yes, I have seen an advanced collectors that was just like that (don't remember what year, but I want to say a nazi era one). Not common, but I have seen it at least once or twice. Also have seen them with no sear or mag safety and probably police marked...


ed

 

[Guest]

My opinion - RE: the Mauser contract with the Police. All G-date Police Lugers shipped from Mauser were in the late - e - or early - f - block. They were drilled for a sear safety, not installed. A few have a magazine safety, most have the remains of a magazine safety. A few escaped this modification as indicated by close examination. No magazines or holsters were shipped. All holsters were purchased in Berlin by the Police depot. All magazines came from C.G. Haenel. Fact is these were the first of the september 1935 contract and had a scriptic Haenel - H - on the heal of the magazine body and spine marked logo. Same magazine for the early 1936-S/42 Police contract. The only Military production Lugers ever shipped from Mauser to the Police were;
1. G-S/42 in the late - e - and - f - block. Maybe 650
2. 1936-S/42 in the - g - block few later in the - h - block. About 400
3. 1939-S/42 in the - n - block, about 2300 with 2-MM-SE6 magazines
4. 41-byf in the - o - and - p - block. Maybe a 1000 with 3-MM-122 magazines
There were no K-dates, 1937-S/42, 1938-S/42, 1939-42, 1940-42 or 42-byf Lugers shipped directly from Mauser to the Police depot. Yet there are a few out there, won in a poker game?? who knows. I have a very interesting Kriegsmarine - O - property number 1937-S/42 with a sear safety. Where did the Police find this one?? 1938 to 1942 was the police Banner Eagle K, F, C, and L era.

Anybody have magazines for list 020, Help!!!

Thanks

 

[Guest]

RE: 1939-S/42 Police Lugers in the previous post. The estimated production should read 1300. I believe that number still might be on the high side, 1000 to 1300 is probably a better guess. The 41-byf Police Luger is very hard to find and there are very few found in collections. Yet, the serial number and suffix ranges would indicate that nearly a 1000 were produced. I have only recorded 13 in the o, p, q and t blocks. Where did they all go?

 

[Jan C Still]

Don
You said" "All G-date Police Lugers shipped from Mauser were in the late - e - or early - f - block. They were drilled for a sear safety, not installed."
Did you mispeak. The G date police Lugers that I have observed have an installed sear safety.

Have observed a lot more G Date police Lugers than 41 byf police Lugers and would find it hard to believe that more of the 41 byf police were produced than G date police. How did you arrive at your production estimates?
Jan

 

[Guest]

Jan
My thoughts only involved the configuration of the pistol when it left Mauser. It has been my opinion that Mauser drilled the hole and the Police installed the sear safety. My old records also indicate the sear safety factory was in Berlin. Your so correct, not many G-Date Police Lugers running around without a sear safety.

If you feel that Mauser installed the sear safety for the Police, I would be very interested in your thoughts and comments.

RE: 41-byf Police Lugers.

9042o - 9176o No army Lugers reported in this serial range. Probably 150 pistols

1587p - 3307p One Army Luger reported within this serial number range. If I were to guess, I suspect it was also a Police Luger and all the information was not provided.
1720 Lugers and how many were 41-byf Police. I leave this guess to you. Kinda like throwing darts, close many times but few bullseyes. In order to guess at this, one must realize the 41-byf was very commom in the - p - block with about 9800 of the production being byf Lugers. Why only one very common Army Luger reported within this range of very rare 41-byf Police Lugers.

1816t - 1921t Three pistols reported in this range of 105 Lugers. I have mixed emotions on this block. I suspect these came in the hands of the Police other than from mauser. Modified for Police work and used as such. Pure guesswork on my part.


Another thought. I doubt there were any 41-42 Lugers in the - r - block, I suspect they were - P - block pistols and reported as - R - block pistols. I have found there to be Lotza confusion between p and r and g and q.

 

[Guest]

Taudelt
Don't be confused by my comments. it is very possible for a - c - block W-154 pistol to end up with the Police. Remember the "won in a poker game" thought? The pistol certainly is correct for the - c - block. How it could have ended up in the police inventory is beyond the shipping from Mauser. I wish you would have offered more money, would like to have a picture of that pistol.
Good Luck

 

[Guest]

Jan
I forgot to mention the 41-byf Police Luger in the - q - block.
9069q
below this number is Army pistol number 8877q
above this number is Army pistol number 9635q
No Army pistols reported in between these numbers.

Was this specific Mauser 41-byf police a production serial number range? Maybe a small group of rare 41-byf Police pistols shipped to the police depot in Berlin? Or a "poker game game" pistol, maybe even a product of "WaAUSA"?

You tell us how many 41-byf pistols were produced based upon these statistics. Maybe better you tell me how you came up with your estimate of total production.
Great talking and discussing Lugers with you
Don

 

[Jan C Still]

Don
You said: “It has been my opinion that Mauser drilled the hole and the Police installed the sear safety.” I agree completely (I was not clear in my statement) See Axis Pistols, 1989, page 350:”sear safety added by the Police during the Nazi Era.” This applies both to reworks and to new manufactured Lugers.

Based on research conducted by 1989(Axis Pistols page 205) there are almost three times more sear safety police G date Lugers reported than sear safety police byf 41s reported. I suspect that the number reported has some relationship to production. I suspect that the police Lugers are over reported in comparison to the Army Lugers and there are Army Lugers within the serial ranges that you report as solid blocks of police Lugers; from which you estimated your production of 650 police G dates and 1000 police 41 byfs. Additional serial number data will verify or disprove this. (Note: A higher survival ratio of police G dates to police 41 byfs would also explain a disparity between estimated production and numbers reported.)

It is apparent that you have more up to date police and army serial number data in the byf 41 serial range than we have generated in our table see 1940/1941 DATES MILITARY CODES 42 and byf DATA 1 2 http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4017
It would be most helpful if you would share some of this data for our data base above.
Thanks
Jan

 

[Guest]

Jan
I certainly agree with you on the count of G-Date Police vs the 41-byf police. The late - e - and early - f - blocks is well established as the home of the G-Date Police. Within these two suffix letters many Army, Reichsmarine and police Lugers have been reported. The numbers of each provide a mathematical approach that provides a reasonable estimate. Between serial number 9100 - 9999e, most are reported as G-police, only four Army pistols within the range. I suspect there might be another 100 G-Date Police in the early - f - block between 1f - 2500f. Your estimate in 1988 was a good number based upon the numbers that we had recorded at the time.

The 41-byf is another game, not many reported but wide serial number ranges with few Army pistols reported within. Lets examine only two blocks, the - o - block and - p -.
Between 9042o and 3307p I see nine 41-byf Police Lugers and four army pistols within 4264 numbers. A simple ratio would provide some sort of estimate in just this block of 41-byf Police Lugers. My 41-byf Police "rig" is within this serial range. During the many years that I have been involved with this hobby, I have held in my hand, several pistols manufactured by the "cottage industry". If any of you guys find a 41-byf Police for sale, you would be wise to solicit additional information before you lay out the going price. I suspect a real 41-byf rig is worth about $4500.00 at this point.

I suspect these 41 police pistols left Mauser in March of 1941. What events were occurring in Europe about this time? If many of these pistols were used for some Military operation, what happened to all of the pistols both Army and Police within this serial number range? Pure and simple conjecture on my part. But, maybe we can get some others involved who have information to solve this problem of estimation. Your estimate in 1988 was accurate for the information available, today I would bet a coke that 1000 is closer than 200. Luger collecting is not unlike Aerial Navagation, neither being an exact science.

 

[Guest]

Jan
The above was in "preview reply" I left the computer and my lovely housemate pushed the "submit reply" button and sent you the draft copy..

41-byf Police 9042o - 3307p. Don't mis-understand me, I do not believe the numbers that a ratio seems to provide. Many more serial numbers need to be found within these suffix ranges before anyone can provide a close estimate of the total produced.

RE March of 1941, should read close to March of 1941. a few commas are missing but the draft is readable. I'll try harder next time. Thanks for your comments.