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Georg Luger Question?

2K views 16 replies 6 participants last post by  DarkLord 
#1 ·
As I know little about Georg Luger's achievements, I am trying to understand a period FN document.

Did Georg Luger work on any pistol designs in the early 1900s that function with a slide (1900 to 1907)? I am not referencing production models, but maybe a design that was never put into production or maybe made by another manufacturer...

Thank you for your time.
Anthony
 
#2 ·
We do know that after Loewe hired him, and he started his work at DWM in Berlin, Loewe sent him down to Oberndorf to "help" Mauser. That was when he was hanging around Mauser's research office, and when he took the three lug bolt design model back to Berlin to patent it in his own name. It took decades for Mauser to litigate that and get his design back. The letter introducing Luger to Mauser, written by Loewe's staff, is in the Mauser archives.

It's certainly possible that Loewe sent Luger to other Loewe owned companies for a variety of reasons. A search of the FN archives might turn up something similar. Also, searches of Luger patents might turn up something related to FN designs. I use the German online DEPATIS site.

 
#5 ·
There is no known info on Luger working on a slide based pistol as far as I'm aware.

Like Mauser, he was working on semi-automatic rifle designs but not much came from it.

DWM did make a Browning rip-off for a while but I don't think Luger was involved.

There is also the matter of his son, Georg Luger Jr. That may also confuse matters.
 
#6 ·
Anthony, there is a strong possibility there were early Colts autos in the DWM 'in-house' collection. I can factually tell you there were numerous pistols made by other companies within the confines of J. P. Sauer & Sohn. These were studied for function and design differences. So, I see no reason to think otherwise about DWM or Mauser. When Colt was forced to sell their 'in-house collection, back in the 1980s, there were a large number of "other" weapons from other companies noted therein. Two of these, Mauser Broomhandle types, wound up here in Chattanooga and I purchased both of them. Colt was forced to sell their collection because of the stupidity of its state government. They were allowed, as I understood the situation, to keep their collection of Colt pistols. So, it is possible Georg Luger was working on a slide-type of a firearm. JIM
 
#9 ·
Anthony, there is a strong possibility there were early Colts autos in the DWM 'in-house' collection.
Hi Jim,

It actually precedes Colt production as they saw all of John Browning's prototypes with a lot of negative consequences... but that is for the next book. So yes, archive docs do indicate that they had access to other designs.

Thanks
Anthony
 
#7 ·
Anthony,

I didn't mention the obvious. I assume that you have full access to the ARS Mechanica archives. Would correspondence be in there relating to any work with Luger or collaboration with Loewe?

Luger came to Loewe from Mannlicher who he had met socially in Vienna after school and his service in the Austrian military where he was a firearms instructor, and also interested in automatic loading weapons design. He did work on design with Mannlicher from 1875 until leaving for Loewe in 1891. I assume he learned about patent processes at that time.

Could contact between Mannlicher and FN have brought him to Belgium ? Note that the Mauser brothers started their careers working for Samuel Norris in Liege in the late 1860's.

This is the presentation from the Paul Mauser archive on the Luger / Mauser relationship starting in 1891:

 
#10 ·
To give a bit away from the new edition: There was huge animosity between Luger and Browning and nothing indicates that Luger ever went to FN, or that he was welcome at FN. I was fortunate to have access to all of the Browning and FN correspondence (a recent archive find) and it was eye opening. Despite that FN was part of DWM by 50% majority share ownership, not fully owned by DWM, these were very distinct rival camps. I, for long, knew about the feuds but did not know the extent of it. I am gently presenting this in the book as I know how well-liked Luger is in modern times. From what I read, I do not think that I personally would have liked Mr. Luger if I lived in that time.

Thanks
Anthony
 
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#8 ·
Georg Luger worked most of his life on his pistol, and then transitioned to rifle design. When he left DWM he took his rifle design with him and continued work on it (and a lawsuit ensued).
There are no pistols with slides I'm aware of he ever worked on. In fact, he seemed rather dedicated to the toggle design, as that's the mechanism his rifle design used.
 
#11 · (Edited)
Don't be gentle. We already established in our books that Luger was an opportunist leech who specialized in patenting other people's designs and subsequently demanding royalties.

He was kicked out of Mauser because of it and thrown out of DWM in the end for the same reasons.

The fact that he lost most of his earnings during the 1920s inflation is a bit of karma.

When looking at the rivalry between DWM, Mauser and FN. I think Loewe played that game very well. By allowing these companies some room to compete with each other it promoted business and innovation. And Loewe always won anyway as they supplied the tooling as well.

Interestingly also, the handgun business was never part of the European cartel agreements. The real money was to be made with rifle contracts (and ammunition), the pistol business was just a minor side business to Loewe.
 
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#12 ·
The relationships between European industrialists were fascinating - representing something new in business including the concentration of power and creativity.

Loewe, Mauser, Luger, and a few hundred others were at the center of this in the arms and materials industries. It's what makes studying them so fascinating, and why you truly hold history in your hands when you hold a Luger pistol or a Mauser or FN rifle.

For a real eye opener, start looking into the clandestine marketing agreements made between the major manufacturers (literally establishing cartels)...
 
#13 ·
Gentlemen,

This is probably one of the most exciting posts for me on this forum! Please let me know which book has the most information on the Luger practices so that I can acquire it (I hope it is in print) and reference it to set a precedence or at least a modus operandi. I do not want to come across as the one who, villainizes Luger, yet I can not ignore the documents.

Thanks!
Anthony
 
#14 ·
Anthony,

We discussed Luger's role in some depth in our Paul Mauser biography. I suggest to contact Mauro Baudino as he is the custodian of the original archive material we used in the book.

There is also a family connection between the Mauser and FN representatives at the turn of the 19th/20th Century.
 
#15 ·
Anthony,

I have our Auto 5 book; absolutely love it. As a kid my hunting buddy had one and I just fell in love with the A5. VERY much enjoyed your book, so thanks.

About my only complaint with Anthony's books are that some of the older ones are no longer in print. I'd love to find an affordable copy of your Holsters & Shoulder Stocks book.

Keep doing what you do my brotha!!! There are lot of fans of your work out there.
 
#16 ·
Anthony,

I have our Auto 5 book; absolutely love it. As a kid my hunting buddy had one and I just fell in love with the A5. VERY much enjoyed your book, so thanks.

About my only complaint with Anthony's books are that some of the older ones are no longer in print. I'd love to find an affordable copy of your Holsters & Shoulder Stocks book.

Keep doing what you do my brotha!!! There are lot of fans of your work out there.
Thanks for your kind words. I will not do another edition of the "Holsters" book for the following reasons:

1- The initial concept was to expand on it for a second edition. I expected an avalanche of collectors coming forward with odd and special holsters for the second edition... that never happened.

2- I have to rely on a lot of serious collectors as I do not know all these holsters and patterns... I had a couple of guys trying to push some fakes on to me for inclusion in the book. Luckily I knew those were fakes, but I have gotten more and more concerned about recognizing them, especially in those fields I know little about. Faking is now much more prolific than when I did the book. I can recognize it with FN Browning stuff, but no so on the rest.

3- Accessory books have a bad trend of slow sales, until it is out-of-print. It never sold well for us and we made more money buying back the inventory of a defunct dealer and selling the book years after it went of the market.

Thanks again!
Anthony
 
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