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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Help!!

I know very little about Lugers....


Yesterday at a gun show in Phoenix, Arizona I traded a Dutch Luger (average shape) for the Luger below. It's a Byf 41 "Black Widow" with "SS" markings, and skull and cross bones. On the spine of the handle, it appears to have unit markings that can be traced to a spefic SS Major.

The markings are as follows: RSHA Section III B 5

According to a book, which the guy included with this gun, it belong to:

"SS Major von Loew zu Steinfurth." Section III B 5. Occupied Territories."

The Luger appears to have even wear on the exterior, but the bore is poor.

Did I get lucky, or was a suckered by a "shooter grade Luger" that was "enhanced" to add value.

He claimed to have the gun for 35 years, and got it from a former WWII veteran.

Please be gentle. I am new to this... :)

Robert

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger19.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger22.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger28.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger31.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger33.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger34.jpg

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/luger35.jpg
 

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HBG
I have examined several Nazi era Lugers with ss runes or a deaths head stamped someplace. In my opinion (and that of most experienced collectors), the markings were all added post WWII. The box appears contempory. I would have kept the Dutch Luger.
I would return the fake deaths head Luger and get your Dutch Luger back. Who did you get it from?
Jan
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yes... the wooden box is only a few years old.

I got it from a local collector in Phoenix. He doesn't seem to be a dealer...

I contacted him about an hour ago, and told me he traded that Dutch Luger for a G43 rifle the same day??

I asked for my money back, and he said a deal is a deal...

I mentioned that he told me it's legit, and he still insists it is.

I don't want to release his name, because it might hurt my chances getting money back.

The Dutch Luger was in so-so shape... but I felt it was worth $1500.

I have two people in Arizona that told me it's real.... but feel if it's too good to be true, it probably is...
 

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Robert,

Just jumping in at the end (I was sleeping after we had our E-mail exchange earlier this evening). Well, I am sorry for you to notice that the experts ont this form and the other forum agree upon my first reaction to you about this Luger.

The man who took your fine Dutch Luger as a trade in for the byf 41 was fully aware of the 'real story' behind it. His reaction when you tried to undo the transaction makes that very clear to me.

The standard approach of this kind of seller follows the standard textbook:
- It was brought back by a veteran after WWII
- I bought it from him directly some .... years ago (in your case 35 years)
- I just tried once to shoot with it, it is very accurate, but I never shot it again
- I want to sell it now, because... (in your case because his wife is jewish - and she does not want him to keep a SS marked Luger in his collection)
- SS marked Lugers are very rare, many are not real, but this one is, because.... In your case the book, and the 'matching marking' on the strip.

This last part is one of the best prepared arguments that I heard of, and the Luger plus the book are together a gimmick that will give you a lot to talk about during a gun show.

Best regards
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks Joop..


It appears obvious that I finally got burned....

I will call this guy that traded me this bogus gun for a refund...

Robert
 

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There is alot to be careful about in old Arizona and I aint talkin' about horny toads and scorpions. I would love to know the name of the seller.

Quite frankly Mr buffguy you have nothing to fear in disclosing his name as your posting simply states this is a gun I bought from so-in-so. I have not noted any accusations made by you.

Perhaps you should introduce him to this web sight maybe that will loosen him up a bit...especially if he thinks he's going to be "outed" on the net.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the advice...

I will call him tonight... and if he is not willing to give me a refund, I will then post the name of the guy who sold me this pistol.

Thanks again... Robert
 

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Robert, I suspect the guy still has your Dutch Luger and lied about "trading it off" That's an easy out as the pistol is "gone" so he dosen't have to deal with you any more. Sounds like a really shifty charecter met up with a novice. This is one for Judge Judy.....Jerry Burney
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hello Jerry...


Yes... I can see this on Judge Judy right now... LOL

Actually, I did confirm that he traded it off within 15 minutes for a near mint G43 rifle.

It also ticks me off, that I have been looking for a G43 rifle for my collection for some time.

Hopefully, he will give me the $1500 I wanted on the Dutch Luger in exchange for this Luger.... I will announce the "verdict" when it's over...

Thanks again... Robert
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Good News!!!

He called me back....

He said that he didn't have the Dutch Luger I traded for this Luger, not the $1500 to pay for the Dutch Luger.

But, he would give me the G43 rifle he got for the Dutch Luger. We met at 10 pm MST, and did the swap.

The gun looks near mint/mint. The bore looks perfect...

I hope the rifle is real... :) It looks unissued...


Thanks for your help guys.... He was not a big time dealer, nor the person a few suspected.

Robert

http://members.aol.com/historybuffguy/g43.jpg
 

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I think what I heard Dan say, was that once sold, an agreement was met, that the old caveat emptor was in place. That although you felt cheated and taken, that the seller was going by the information he had (no matter how faulty), and wasn't trying to rip you off...


Ed

caveat emp·tor (mptôr) n.

The axiom or principle in commerce that the buyer alone is responsible for assessing the quality of a purchase before buying.
 

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The listing of Reichs Sicherheits Hauptamt (RSHA) departments makes it all too easy to fake a stamp to fit in with a legend. J. Goertz stated categorically (Die Pistole 08 p.280) that "there is not the slightest documentation or other proof" of authenticity of Totenkopf stamped Lugers. He classifies these items as "fakes for collectors specialising in the macabre."

The G43 looks too good to be true - I just hope it isn´t roll-stamped "Danzig" :)
 

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Patrick,

Your comment touches a response I gave on the other forum. I will ask the same question here, just in case.

Is there any original documentation known that discusses marking of firearms with SS property marks or proofs? (With original I mean published in and around Germany before april, 1945).

As far as I know, there wasn't a neccessity or a reason to do so, especially not after unit marking was abandonded at all in the late 30s.
 

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As a fairly new member I am still catching up on old threads. As to the legitimacy of any SS marked weapon. I started my collecting hobby with K98k rifles. There are some legitimate SS marked K98 rifles. These rifles were mostly assembled outside the official goverment system, therefore not waffenamt inspected, in the late 1930's when the SS took second place to the army in weapons procurement. Most were assembled from parts and/or cutdown and rebuilt Gew 98 rifles. Many had the receivers scrubbed of their original markings. Later the SS contracted directly with Steyr for K98k production and some of these were SS marked. Having said all this. The Majority of SS marked K98's from both the parts guns and the later Steyr assembly on the market today are fakes. The vast majority of depot assembled weapons and Steyr production was legit goverment orders and so marked. With the importation of "cheap" Russian Capture K98's in the last few years the fakers have lots of raw material to work with and the scams are growing. Anyone who attended the last NGD in Lousiville probably saw the company that will now produce an all matching K98 with whatever marks you want. Unfortunately some of their work was good enough to fool many casual collectors. For personal reasons, I avoid SS marked weapons in my collection, but whenever I see one or examine one for a friend, I ASSUME it is fake until it can be proven otherwise. Sorry if this is off topic. runner
 

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Patrick, "J. Goertz stated categorically (Die Pistole 08 p.280) that "there is not the slightest documentation or other proof" of authenticity of Totenkopf stamped Lugers."

What do you think of Totenkopf marked holsters? Having seen a period photo of one, I know they exist.....

Jerry Burney
 

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Jerry,

holsters could be a different matter. From my own experience, people often went to great lengths to "personalize" their equipment (I did it myself for the baby Luger holster you made me). Individuals, and even units, sometimes did this. It was common practise in the (British) Parachute Regiment. Germans tell me that it was also often done in the German Wehrmacht. But that does not make SS, Totenkopf etc stamps official. Goertz stated that some of these SS stamps could have been made by concentration camp guards (or others) in their spare time. Most were almost certainly done post war.

Patrick
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Many years ago I purchased a 1940-42 Luger with two matching fxo magazines. A couple of years later and after some magazine research, I looked in the mirror and realized that I was looking at a guy who didn't know crap about Luger magazines. The story being, if you don't have time to do the homework, you probably shouldn't be trading rare lugers for junk. Not the others fault, he had done his homework and knew what was going on. No free lunch.
 
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