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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Dear Friends,

I´m needing some help here since I don´t have this volume of Mr. Still´s books (shame on me!). Here is the story:

A friend of mine is a newbie collector and is trying to get a good III Reich-era Luger. Last week a Luger byf 41 was offered to him. The seller sent him some pictures, a little bit blurred, but the pistol really looks OK, including with the eagle on toggle and Waffenamts on the receiver. Here are the same pics:


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However, he was talking about this purchase with another collector friend and this guy told him that “all the Lugers with byf41 code were sold to Portugal and didn´t see any use in the Wehrmacht. The only exception were the Black Widows”. To say the truth, this statement sounded really strange to me! I know that Portugal bought some Lugers in 1942 and after from some stocks but most were byf42 (I don´t remember what were the suffixin those batches).

But, it may seems stupid, but I like to hear your opinion on this.

Thanks in advance,

Douglas.
 

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Douglas, not a stupid question at all, just the story is stupid.

All the byf 41 Lugers were designated for use in Germany, either the military or Police. To the best of my knowledge no byf 41 Lugers were sent to either Portugal or Bulgaria!!

1942 Lugers (byf42) were used by the German Army, some went to Portugal and some to Bulgaria. The Germans used byf 42 Lugers from serial numbers in the no suffix through the L-Block, well over 100,000 pistols. The Germans sold about 5,000 Lugers to Portugal in the M-Block, up to 5300m. They sold an additional 5,000 Lugers to Bulgaria from the mid N-Block to the early N-Block.
 

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Pancho,
* Great photo's & write-up on a nice byf'41 "widow".
* One thing....you'd have a real rarity if you have WWII Ammo from 1994. It was a long War; but,.... a typo I think!! Thought you'd like to know.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
quote:Originally posted by garfield

quote:Originally posted by Douglas_Jr

this guy told him that “all the Lugers with byf41 code were sold to Portugal and didn´t see any use in the Wehrmacht. The only exception were the Black Widows”.
Douglas.
What does "this guy" collect, the tops off of old Fords?
Garfiled,

Now that you mentioned, you´re right: he collects Old West guns!

Frank, Pancho: Many thanks for the info. I told to my friend to grab that P-08!

Best wishes,

Douglas.
 
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One thing to keep in mind is that most of the 41s and 42s were manufactured with walnut stocks. That is the reason that Black Widows tend to be a bit more valuable. Stories that the Black Widows were associated with SS units or Gestapo are probably untrue. These pistols are most likely manufactured to fill the military contract without any difference from the walnut stocked Lugers other than being fitted with the black plastic grips. Why that happened is a bit of mystery, but probably has nothing to do with the ultimate destination of the Lugers.
 

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byf P08s were fitted with black composite grips if walnut grips were not available per military directive. No mystery here. While some byfs with black composite grips may have been used by SS or Gestapo personal it is not historically correct to "associate" such pistols with either group. IMHO, the only reason that a person would pay more for a byf with composite grips, vs. one with walnut grips, would be because they have been taken in by the b.s. and hype that has been foisted off on the unknowing, read gullible, collecting public.
 

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Bill,

Quote:
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IMHO, the only reason that a person would pay more for a byf with composite grips, vs. one with walnut grips, would be because they have been taken in by the b.s. and hype that has been foisted off on the unknowing, read gullible, collecting public.
......................................................................

I couldn't agree more!! With the "Black Widow" hype and the ability to get decent looking fake plastic grips, the unknowing novice collector is being taken big time.
 

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Hello Men,

Am not certain if I am reading you correctly, but "hype" is not the determinant reason for the desire to own a BW.

I would hazard to say that any collector, having the choice between buying a regular 41/42 byf, and a BW byf, at the market price for a regular 41/42 byf, would be wise to buy the BW, because he would be getting more "collectible" value for his dollar.

Rarity and condition are the determinant factor in any collectibe, from stamps, to guns, to kewpie dolls. The BW grips are rarer than the walnut grips, thus the increase in value. Best example of this is the Political Leader, where 70% of the $4,000 - $5,000 value is simply in the NSDAP plastic (bakelite) grips. Another example is the late war PP pressed wood grips--they are rarer, thus the pistol is more valuable than other "ac" marked PP's. Same for the reddish brown bakelite grips on the PP. Same pistols without these grips, are less rare, thus less expensive. Market forces at work.

It's important to know our grips. Here's the best way to do that with a Black Widow:
Pancho,
PS. Did I misunderstand you?
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Pancho, all I meant was that there is plenty of hype out there for the "SS" or "Nasty Guys" having Lugers with the black Bakelite Grips. Many people might want one of these Lugers for that reason.

You are correct that these grips are worth more because of the good old Law of Supply and Demand. This is such a premium, many people are producing fake grips to fool the unsuspecting public. These guys make the fakes for about $25, then jack the price of the pistol up by $300, thus making a cool 20% or so above the legit price of the pistol.

I have seen many of these fakes around, so just be careful or be prepared to be taken for a several hundred dollar ride!!
 

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Two years ago at Tulsa some hapless fellow approached my table with what appeared to be an East German P08. I told him I had no interest in it. He replied that no one else did either. I explained about the bullseye grips and he replied that he put them on the pistol as the left grip was broken I gave him $300 for it.

Upon later examination it turned out to be a 85% byf 42 with no import marks. I reached into my parts box for a pair of bakelite grips which I put on the gun. It sold that afternoon for $900.

So much for the rarity of black widows.
 

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Frank,
Righto, I agree. The SS link and the BW nomenclature are strictly fairy tales. The value/rarity of the BW is simply because it is another collectible variation. I think there is some inflation because of the SS fantasy. Cleary, unknowledgable buyers frame their bids around this fantasy, and if you want to own a BW variation, then this sort of inflation is an unavoidable problem.

I've got a page on my website which trys to offer some clarity on this. Here's a link,
http://www.panchogun.com/FVWebPhotos/FV-Luger-Blk-Widow-5x100px.jpg

By the way, in my discussions with other collectors, it seems that there is a consensus as to who is responsible for inventing the "Black Widow" designation for this variation, but, I'm not certain who came up with the SS tag.


Geo/Keoki,

Let me see if I understand your point (assuming that the grips you used were authentic).
You replaced the walnut grips with BW grips on a byf 42 and sold it at a higher price.
If your remark, "So much for the rarity of black widows" suggests that BW's are not rarer and more expensive,
then one of us needs to go back on our medication.

Have I misunderstood you?

Pancho

PS. Add-on grips...no, no, no.
 
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I have bought a Luger, that is almost equal as the Luger mentioned above. ( a BYF 41)
It has marks of carrying it, and also the barrel inside is not completely smooth.
Further it has wooden grips.
I payed 400 dollars for it, i hope, it is a good price (for me)
Lateron I shall try to sent some photo's.
Messingman
 
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And here are some pictures from the wqeapon, I hope, someone knows more about it, than me...
Picture 0ne: left side of the barrel
Picture two: Right side of the barrel
Picture three: The top of the weapon
Picture four: The number, and suffix under the barrel on the receiver
Picture five: The back from the barrel.
My gosh, the system blockes again!!
Ed, i am going to send the pictures again as attached e-mail, sorry, this way it will not work...
The marks on it, and the suffixletter are for me really interesting...
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quote:Originally posted by messingman

I have bought a Luger, that is almost equal as the Luger mentioned above. ( a BYF 41)
It has marks of carrying it, and also the barrel inside is not completely smooth.
Further it has wooden grips. (look the back of the weapon)
I payed 400 dollars for it, i hope, it is a good price (for me)
Can anyone tell me more about the marks, the weapon??
Pleqase look picture's message above Ron...
Pictures: one left side of the barrel, with marks,
two : the top of the receiver.
Messingman
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ADMIN: Pictures added for messingman


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added / changed pictures. It is probably best to start a NEW thread, that way, it can stand alone, and then refer to the other thread that is like it, :)

Ed
 
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