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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
Hi Pete,

Though the one you posted is in much poorer condition, than the fake this thread was started about, it does appear to have correct markings. What is unusual about it is that it is late in production for a KM 1st variation as defined by Still. A collector who focuses on KM marked examples needs to do their homework to keep from being fooled by forged examples and not loosing out on a truly rare variation when afforded the opportunity to acquire one. I realize that is stating the obvious for many here. I am hoping to reach those who are new to our hobby and seek information. The example that this thread was started on has been bid on even after the seller added to his description that the marking has been identified as being fake.


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Not always assuming the worst about an online seller, especially one I have dealt with before with good success; I informed Legacy of the problem with their 1934 KM and sent them a link to this thread.

They made the following addition to their auction:

"[Information added 9/8/2016 10:28:12 PM]Once I have bids I cannot alter or end and auction. But several collectors have pointed out that the Nazi Navy marking is not correct. I mentioned in the post that it is not like others I have seen and therefore I would urge caution. If you have already bid, I will not hold you to it. It is a shame as the finish on the gun is beautiful but the Navy marking does not look original. Any questions please contact us by email."
 

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WOW Burgess, I've had this one, S/N 582775 in the back of my safe for over 20 years and from what I'm reading in this thread, it's a bogus piece. The property number is N6278. Who would have believed that the fakers would have been fooling with Mauser pocket pistols back in the 1990s.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Lyn,

I would not jump to the conclusion that yours is fake. The marking is missing a couple of lines but other than that it looks correct. Can you take a close up of both markings with a camera set at a macro setting. Remove any filler(grease pencil) used to help accentuate the marking. I have had the advantage of sitting next to a co-worker who operated a pantograph engraving machine for almost a year before I joined the Army. I have also had some hands on experience using one. The markings were applied at the naval yards and I would expect that pistols were done in batches. It would be easy to miss the inside of the legs if you were doing a bunch. If you have the opportunity to look at many examples you can see there are ones done with new tips. Others show that the tips were beginning to wear and others were the tip is almost worn out. Occasionally there are missed lines and slips. But both the straight and curved eagles have a form and were done with a consistent setup. They were done the same way on all types of equipment. It is possible that one thing might of been changed due to a cutting tip or a template not being available but not both. If being done by someone not familiar with the engraving equipment it would be obvious. It takes some practices to get consistent results.


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I will be very interested in Burgess' reply. I'm not a Weimar/3rd Reich guy, but your marking looks pretty good to me. It has the heavier "strokes" unlike the very thin lines of the fake, and the proportions and "M" look much better than the fake example from the original post.

OK, Burgess and I were typing at the same time. ��
 

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There's still quite a difference between Lyn's gun and the Gunbroker offering. I have added it to the right of the others so you can see them side-by-side. The picture isn't super clear but you can still see quite a difference in the widths of the lines, especially in the M, the swastika and the wing structure.

I have also added the gun Pete found at Legacy to the right of Lyn's.

 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
wait... people are judging fake vs not fake, without samples in that serial range? Let's wait more examples. M pocket pistol is not that rare. No hurry, time will tell.
Alvin, I understand why it is your opinion that we should wait to judge but as with many of your post, this topic is outside your knowledge base. I have seen enough examples and have unique experience which allows me to feel very comfortable judging original markings from forged ones. If I was at all unsure I would ask for the opinions of others who collect German Navy marked pistols and equipment for their input.

Mark,

The side by sides are great. I would suggest looking at the shape of the heads, torso, the swastika, the "M" and the location of the wing lines. The 1st, 3rd & 4th vary but are all consistent with shape and technique of original markings. Variation among them is within a reasonable range.

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Discussion Starter · #30 ·
Philip,

Yours has a very sharp marking that looks absolutely correct.

I have recorded almost 2000 .32 caliber pocket models in my database. Of the 2000 about 800 are 1934 models and of course I have more KM 1st variations recorded than in Still's book. That variation occurs throughout the serial number range. There are groups or batches that appear to be in sequence but the 4 KM variations are all mixed up. So just like the examples in Axis Pistols serial numbers can't be used to determine what a marking should look like.

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WOW Burgess, I've had this one, S/N 582775 in the back of my safe for over 20 years and from what I'm reading in this thread, it's a bogus piece. The property number is N6278. Who would have believed that the fakers would have been fooling with Mauser pocket pistols back in the 1990s.
Lyn,
back in the '90's! They were faking KM's in the 70's, and probably before.
KM pistols have always had a significant $ premium, and the mark is "easy" to do for someone skilled in the "art".
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I have seen far more attempts at faking the 1st variation, as defined by Still, than the other 3 types. The stick wing eagle would be easier to re-create than the curved wing eagle but the fleet number on the curved surface grip strap is difficult to get right. The 4th variation, with only an eagle would be the least difficult to execute but curved lines are more difficult to re-create. I remember the first fake I saw in person. It was an attempt at a 1st variation. It was so poorly executed that I knew it was a fake without even picking it up. I asked the dealer, at the show, if he knew the marking was fake. He turned up his nose and did not want to hear anything more. I do not know how long forgeries of KM 1934 Mausers have been attempted but when a marking doubles or triples value, someone is going to try to profit from faking it. Hopefully this thread will bring some fakes to light and help collectors become more aware.

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
Lyn,

From what I can see it is completely legitimate. The inside of the eagles legs were missed but the shape and method is consistent with original markings. It would be very easy to miss the part that is missing and if not discovered till after the pistol or part was removed from the pantographs clamp it would be nearly impossible to re-clamp it and get it in precisely the same position to go back and add the inside of the legs. This is most likely why they are not there.

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I plugged Lyn's improved picture into the lineup below (3rd from the left). The legs / tail feathers (or lack of) seems to me to be the biggest difference, other than the width of the scribing/engraving tool, but that's Burgess's area of expertise.

 

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Thx for verifying Burgess. As I had stated, I have had this one for over 20 years, actually since 1993 and my records indicate that I bought it from the family of the vet that brought it home. For those reasons, I hadn't been concerned about originality, but from what you shown in this thread, concern should be greater in these days, because the fakers are getting pretty good. I've got another KM 1934 buried somewhere in the safe and I'll dig it out and send pictures.
 

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1934 Mauser KM

Hello Gentleman,

I have been offered a 1934 KM marked Mauser rig, 7.65, s/n 613xxx. I have read all of the post contained in this thread and I would like to submit a couple of photos for your examination and thoughts. The pistol does not have N or O property numbers. Any and all comments welcome.

Thanks for your time.

Bill
 

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