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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi, How do you tell , by markings, if a p-38 is a russian capture?

Specifically I am speaking about the BYF-44's that SOG had a few years back. any info on SOG's WWII p-38's or xperience with them?



Thanks in advance!
 

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I'm sure that you are looking for an exact way to tell if a Russian capture or not, however, 99% of the P-38's that SOG brought in were dip blued. There are some rounded edges on the guns and the blue is sort of black and pretty dull. Side by side with an un-blued example you can see the difference easily!! I'm sure someone else has a better answer. I haven't seen any different markings on the SOG guns that I have examined.
Dave
 

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The unlocking pin on the barrel, locking block, trigger spring, sear and some pins all should be "in the white". The Russians put a cold "dip" blue on their capture pieces and some of these parts were blued. All of the unlocking pins on Russian capture P.38s I have seen are blued since this part can't be removed.

Some of the small parts may be wrong on the gun, for example a byf 44 with some e/359 parts. The grips may be wrong for the gun an example might be Julius Posselt grips on a Walther.

The Russians kept the major parts that were serial numbered together so it may be a mixed bag for the rest. All of the guns were "dipped" which ranges from a very black finish to a light brown.

The Russian rework program helped preserve these guns for some of us who had never seen rare variations available in quantity before. I have a second variation 0 series with a small x near the serial number, I had not put my hands on one before this pistol arrived.

Mark

P.S. The dredded X (Russian capture) marking is also a give away for the small percentage of guns that were stamped.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you for contibuting!
So the x I have on top of my slide serial # is indicative of russian capture? Everthing on my weapon appears matching and the inner circled grip #'s match a byf 44's range.Can anyone comment on the lower case v after the four digit serial #?

Also on russian captures, was it a matter of policy to destroy the WaAmpt or did some and some not?

How bad does one being a russian capture effect it's value?
 

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At this time, the "dipping" and the "x" makes many collectors view them as "shooters" and not collecting pieces. I anticipate that east german lugers and P38s will gather more value than a true shooter in the comming years, but never have the collector value of an "untouched" piece.

Ed
 

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The lower case "v" is part of the serial number. The Germans manufactured guns with serial numbers from 1 to 9999 (or 10000)then began the next run from 1a to 9999a (or 10000a)and so on.

WaA markings generally were not defaced on P.38's by the Russians, the ones I have seen defaced are East German reworks, like this gun

http://www.p38guns.com/VOPO.htm

Ed and I disagree a bit on the value of Russian "dipped" P.38s. Indeed the common guns are valued as "shooters" but the rare variations will always command a premium among the non "purest" collector of P.38s.

2nd Variation 0 series guns, dipped or not, are very rare as are the AC no date guns and these two variatons (there are others) will never be considered as "shooters".

The value of all of these "dipped" guns as Ed pointed out are surely going to go up in value, especially if they are missing an import marking.

Mark
 

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quote:Originally posted by Mark

Ed and I disagree a bit on the value of Russian "dipped" P.38s. Indeed the common guns are valued as "shooters" but the rare variations will always command a premium among the non "purest" collector of P.38s.
No disagreement, I also feel that ANY rarer variation should and will carry more value.

As for me, as an example; if I can't find a Simson Weimar Police except for a reblue, or a pitted one, I will snatch it up faster than you can say #%&**.

Ed
 

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Ed,

Glad to hear we are on the same page. I have had polite exchanges and not so polite exchanges with other collectors who think that any gun not "captured" by a GI in its original condition is worth as much as a post war rework!

As far as the import marks they can be in several places on P.38s, under the barrel very lightly stamped or under the grips is most common. They might also be on the grip tang or, with the Interarms imports, under the slide. Of course there are other places they can be marked as well.

A few importers, early on, did not stamp them at all, these guns show up on the auction sights from time to time.

Some of the more deceitful individuals will pair the gun up with a period (or post war) holster, spare mag and recently ...... FAKE CAPTURE PAPERS!

Be careful out there!

Mark
 

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My SOG byf44 had the import stamp in barely readable tiny print on the edge of the magazine well. This way it was hidden when the magazine was inserted into the gun.
I'm not sure how much the BATF appreciated some of these creative marking locations, though...
 

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I bought one of these from FGS a couple of years ago. The import stamp is on the side of the grip frame under the grip panel. Nice way to deal with this government-mandated vandalism.
Mine's a very nice AC43. The locking block, springs, etc. are all white. Does that mean that it wan not re-blued?
JT
 

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JT,

I have a few FGS guns in my collection and I guarantee the trigger spring is blued and one end of the unlocking pin, not all the parts were subject to the process. Also, the gun was sent to you without the F and S having red and white paint in them, another sign of a "dipped" gun, not that there is anything wrong with having one!

This link is to the only Russian "X" marked gun that I found which excaped the dipping process, notice the color of the finish. The unlocking pin, etc were all correct.

http://www.p38guns.com/AC44X.htm

Mark
 

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Mark:
There is no paint in the F and S stamps. The frame is very slightly reddish, but nothing like the frame in your photo. I'll assume it's a reblue. Other than that, the pistol is excellent with a mirror bore and shoots well.
Thanks for the photo and information.
JT
By the way, the X on mine is on the frame above the SN, not on the slide.
 

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JT,

You may have a lightly dipped gun. I find this type of dip comes off with a few good cleanings or an ultrasonic bath especially if the finish under the dip is mint. The dip on these guns doesn't stick to blue very well, however it will stay put on parts that were left "in the white".

The redish frame was because of improper treatment in the blue process and the dip will stick to it better than proper blue.

Mark
 
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