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The Kriegsmarine were the first to procure a number of the new commercial Hsc pistols (700001 - 701341) in early 1941. Following shortly thereafter, the German Army (Heer) began procuring a number of HSc pistols for testing among troops and staff officers with a view to replacing the previous Mauser 1934 pistols. It's been reported that approx 3000 pistols, starting with serial 701348 (earliest reported Army Test pistol, were initially procured by the Heer. These pistols bear a small E/655 acceptance (as used on the Mauser 1934)on the left trigger guard and small national emblem on the left rear grip tang. However, additional procurement by the Heer took these procurements into about the 715000 range, utilizing a larger E/655 with the Army Test Proof.
 

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The Kriegsmarine were the first to procure a number of the new commercial Hsc pistols (700001 - 701341) in early 1941. Following shortly thereafter, the German Army (Heer) began procuring a number of HSc pistols for testing among troops and staff officers with a view to replacing the previous Mauser 1934 pistols. It's been reported that approx 3000 pistols, starting with serial 701348 (earliest reported Army Test pistol, were initially procured by the Heer. These pistols bear a small E/655 acceptance (as used on the Mauser 1934)on the left trigger guard and small national emblem on the left rear grip tang. However, additional procurement by the Heer took these procurements into about the 715000 range, utilizing a larger E/655 with the Army Test Proof.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Adler,
Axis pistol, p. 35 says the Army Test proof was 701348 - 710208, and only appeared in first variation pistols. Second variation heer HSc was 713182 - 740884.
The alleged test pistol in the auction is ser.#714xxx. This ser. number is clearly outside of the range described in Axis Pistol.

Issue: Is pistol #714xxx a real/credible test pistol, or is it faked?

Question: Do you know of any such test pistol that is outside of the known range?

Seller is named Cathy Pierce. No photos.
Have sent email asking for complete ser.# and photos
Here is copy of auction:
Download Attachment: HSc-test-auction.jpg
278.41 KB
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Adler,
Axis pistol, p. 35 says the Army Test proof was 701348 - 710208, and only appeared in first variation pistols. Second variation heer HSc was 713182 - 740884.
The alleged test pistol in the auction is ser.#714xxx. This ser. number is clearly outside of the range described in Axis Pistol.

Issue: Is pistol #714xxx a real/credible test pistol, or is it faked?

Question: Do you know of any such test pistol that is outside of the known range?

Seller is named Cathy Pierce. No photos.
Have sent email asking for complete ser.# and photos
Here is copy of auction:
Download Attachment: HSc-test-auction.jpg
278.41 KB
 

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Adler stated
"Following shortly thereafter, the German Army (Heer) began procuring a number of HSc pistols for testing among troops and staff officers with a view to replacing the previous Mauser 1934 pistols. It's been reported that approx 3000 pistols, starting with serial 701348 (earliest reported Army Test pistol, were initially procured by the Heer."

Do you have a reference or basis that indicates that these HSc's were for testing.
Jan
 

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Adler stated
"Following shortly thereafter, the German Army (Heer) began procuring a number of HSc pistols for testing among troops and staff officers with a view to replacing the previous Mauser 1934 pistols. It's been reported that approx 3000 pistols, starting with serial 701348 (earliest reported Army Test pistol, were initially procured by the Heer."

Do you have a reference or basis that indicates that these HSc's were for testing.
Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Jan,
According to Axis Pistols, p.35, this pistol is outside of the ser.# range for the Army test proof. The seller calls it a "test pistol", but my emails with her seemingly reveal her to be hostile, sort of upset that I am asking questions about her pistol. It effects her credibility.

Jan, do you know of any Army test proof pistols that are outside of the first variation heer serial number range, as this on is?
As it is not a WaA or a nitro proof, I do not know what this marking looks like. Do you have a photo of the marking?
Download Attachment: HSc-test-auction2.jpg
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Jan,
According to Axis Pistols, p.35, this pistol is outside of the ser.# range for the Army test proof. The seller calls it a "test pistol", but my emails with her seemingly reveal her to be hostile, sort of upset that I am asking questions about her pistol. It effects her credibility.

Jan, do you know of any Army test proof pistols that are outside of the first variation heer serial number range, as this on is?
As it is not a WaA or a nitro proof, I do not know what this marking looks like. Do you have a photo of the marking?
Download Attachment: HSc-test-auction2.jpg
59.93 KB
 

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Pancho
A photograph of a HSc with the test proof, sn 704312 is shown on page 37 of Axis Pistols.
I do not know of any outside the range nor of any with grips without checkering as described in the add.
Jan
 

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Pancho
A photograph of a HSc with the test proof, sn 704312 is shown on page 37 of Axis Pistols.
I do not know of any outside the range nor of any with grips without checkering as described in the add.
Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Jan,
Received another email today from seller of HSc test proofed. This person seems to be deliberately fabricating info, and attributing it to you. Here is her quote from her email:

"Still...gives the numbers of both the first and second variations of the HSc MTP pistols.In the first batch he states that there were appox.5000 procured, of which 15 are still known to exist. In the second variation there are 6000 thought to have been procured, of which 16 are known to have survived."

I responded:
"You are grossly mistaken, or you are deliberately misquoting him. I have many of Jan's books, and in Axis pistols, and in my direct communication with Jan yesterday, he acknowledged the occurrence only of the first variation 701348 - 710208, and no occurrence of plain grips. Your pistol is outside of this range. You are fabricating false information and attributing it to Still. You are lying. You had better be careful making these false attributions to the author."

She appears to be clearly lying, or do you have some other secret book. Her information is an extreme departure from what you have stated in these postings, and from page 35 of Axis Pistols. Looks like she is using your name in a fraud.
She is Cathy V Pierce <[email protected]>
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=5174637
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Jan,
Received another email today from seller of HSc test proofed. This person seems to be deliberately fabricating info, and attributing it to you. Here is her quote from her email:

"Still...gives the numbers of both the first and second variations of the HSc MTP pistols.In the first batch he states that there were appox.5000 procured, of which 15 are still known to exist. In the second variation there are 6000 thought to have been procured, of which 16 are known to have survived."

I responded:
"You are grossly mistaken, or you are deliberately misquoting him. I have many of Jan's books, and in Axis pistols, and in my direct communication with Jan yesterday, he acknowledged the occurrence only of the first variation 701348 - 710208, and no occurrence of plain grips. Your pistol is outside of this range. You are fabricating false information and attributing it to Still. You are lying. You had better be careful making these false attributions to the author."

She appears to be clearly lying, or do you have some other secret book. Her information is an extreme departure from what you have stated in these postings, and from page 35 of Axis Pistols. Looks like she is using your name in a fraud.
She is Cathy V Pierce <[email protected]>
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=5174637
 

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Jan/Pancho
Responding to the question, I do not have a reference or basis that indicates that these HSc's were for testing. As with other longstanding HSc collectors, I assumed that the designation of “Army test proof”, as detailed in your book, Axis Pistols, (p. 36-37, and of “military test proof” in Pender’s Mauser Pocket Pistols, p. 216, indicated that you and Pender must have had some good documentation that these pistols were, in fact, being tested by the German Army.

One really could question the significance of the small eagle on the left rear tang and whether it signified anything at all, other than merely a continuation of its use as on previous Army procured M1934’s. Perhaps the Heereswaffenamt simply directed that the Army take on the new Mauser HSc and production continued utilizing the previous proofs and acceptance stamps.

In tracking the earlier HSc pistols with the smaller E/655 and the “Army test proof”, identical to that used on the Mauser 1934, a number of pistols bearing the “test proof” have the larger E/655 Army acceptance stamp. AutoMag, 01/02, reported serial 714527 as having the “test proof” and large E/655. Serial 715099 was reported in AutoMag 07/98 as having the same markings. It would appear that the transition between Army Variety I and II was not that clear cut...with examples of both E/655 acceptance stamps being observed.

Uncheckered grips, in my humble opinion, were not on the mentioned pistol when leaving the factory.

I would be very grateful for any input on this subject.
 

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Jan/Pancho
Responding to the question, I do not have a reference or basis that indicates that these HSc's were for testing. As with other longstanding HSc collectors, I assumed that the designation of “Army test proof”, as detailed in your book, Axis Pistols, (p. 36-37, and of “military test proof” in Pender’s Mauser Pocket Pistols, p. 216, indicated that you and Pender must have had some good documentation that these pistols were, in fact, being tested by the German Army.

One really could question the significance of the small eagle on the left rear tang and whether it signified anything at all, other than merely a continuation of its use as on previous Army procured M1934’s. Perhaps the Heereswaffenamt simply directed that the Army take on the new Mauser HSc and production continued utilizing the previous proofs and acceptance stamps.

In tracking the earlier HSc pistols with the smaller E/655 and the “Army test proof”, identical to that used on the Mauser 1934, a number of pistols bearing the “test proof” have the larger E/655 Army acceptance stamp. AutoMag, 01/02, reported serial 714527 as having the “test proof” and large E/655. Serial 715099 was reported in AutoMag 07/98 as having the same markings. It would appear that the transition between Army Variety I and II was not that clear cut...with examples of both E/655 acceptance stamps being observed.

Uncheckered grips, in my humble opinion, were not on the mentioned pistol when leaving the factory.

I would be very grateful for any input on this subject.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Adler,
For your records, the serial number of the HSc/large E/655 with military test proof is #714175.
Seems that the pistol has smooth grips, but made of identical wood. Maybe some previous owner had sanded and refinished the original grips. Note, I have not seen the pistol, only described to me. It seems to me that the MTP HSc is found in both the 1st and 2nd variation heer. So, if a collector wants to represent the MTP in his collection, then he will have to own two of them, one small E/655 and one large E/655.

Jan,
Young lady was misquoting you, but not deliberately. Seems that she does not own your book, but was relying on someone reading it to her over the phone, and she got confused.

Questions,
Whittington rates this pistol 3 in a range of 1-5 for rarity.
How rare are these?
What ball park $ value would you put on a 95% example,
and on a 80% example with smooth grips?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Adler,
For your records, the serial number of the HSc/large E/655 with military test proof is #714175.
Seems that the pistol has smooth grips, but made of identical wood. Maybe some previous owner had sanded and refinished the original grips. Note, I have not seen the pistol, only described to me. It seems to me that the MTP HSc is found in both the 1st and 2nd variation heer. So, if a collector wants to represent the MTP in his collection, then he will have to own two of them, one small E/655 and one large E/655.

Jan,
Young lady was misquoting you, but not deliberately. Seems that she does not own your book, but was relying on someone reading it to her over the phone, and she got confused.

Questions,
Whittington rates this pistol 3 in a range of 1-5 for rarity.
How rare are these?
What ball park $ value would you put on a 95% example,
and on a 80% example with smooth grips?
 
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