[Ron Smith]

I have been hoping to find a nice 1929 BKIW Police to compliment my Weimar Reichswehr 1921 unit marked Lugers, and my 1921 police. This one arrived today. Serial # 2655t.

It's not mint, but a strong 90-95% example. All matching, commercially numbered with an un-numbered,wood bottom,early magazine.
Grips are also un-numbered, but original.

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Blank chamber with DWM marked toggle, showing machine marks on the bolt. External metal finish is not a meticulous as on early production pistols. However, internal finish is like oiled glass.

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I paniced at first, thinking that the barrel suffix was an L, but after close examination. It is a lightly struck and incomplete T. The halo is prominent.
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The frame serial# is also lightly struck, as is the barrel #, but complete.

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C/N marked properly.

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And with a nice deep WaA66 stamp.

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It has been set up for a mag safety. The hole and grip notch are evident. Side plate below with commercial style #.

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Unit marked L.M.184. Landägerei Münster Waffe # 184. the connection with my Reichswehr unit marked pistols. Landjägerei( Rural Militarized police) units were instrumental in policing and filling the gaps between the Weimar Reichswehr units on the Polish and Czech frontiers during the insurgence by these countries, attemping to over run, and annex Eastern Germany prior to WWII.

The German Army was heavily out numbered and under equiped , due to the provisions of the Treaty of Versailles. There was approximately one soldier for every 10 miles of frontier. The Landjägerei were used successfully as stop-gap reinforcements. A "Militia" for lack of a better term. I suspect that most Landjägerei marked Lugers saw some action during this period. As did the Reichswehr pistols.

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Ron

 

[lugerlou]

Ron

Very nice luger, are you calling this luger a Sneak as in stolen parts from the factory and assembled at home, or for other reasons.

 

[Ron Smith]

Hi James,

No, "Sneak" is a catch name given to BKIW 1929 DWMs by a collector. The speculation is that they were not chamber dated nor identified, to hide the fact that they were being made in violation of the Treaty of Versailles. Some have just the DWM on the toggle and some have blank unmarked toggles. Leftover DWM toggles were used up, possibly to give the inferrance that they were earlier production, or made up of parts on hand. Mauser, it is also speculated, assembled and possibly built some of the last of the production in 1930. It is also thought that numbering the parts in the commercial style, would indicate that they were for commercial sale,rather than the fact that thay were for military and police issue.

Ron

 

[lugerlou]

Ron

Thankyou for that clarification,never followed these ones to close and believe one is in the safe.

 

[donmaus]

Ron,
I find it hard to believe that the blank toggles and lack of chamber dates indicate an attempt to deceive the Allies. The May issue of AUTO MAG will include an article I just finished with Joe Wotka's help on Landjägerei unit marks, which were predominantly on the t and u block Lugers produced by BKIW/DWM in 1929. Documentation from Joe's archives indicates that the rearming of the Landjägerei with these Lugers in 1929 was done rather openly, leading me to believe that the pistols were also manufactured openly. I think the "leftover parts" explanation is better than the "sneak" inference.

Congratulations on a very nice addition to your collection.

 

[lugerlou]

Ron& Don

The luger I alluded to that was in the safe is blank Chamber, DWM toggle, serial # 2279 (t) unit marked S.Kz.crossed out 2. crossed out 122. 233. Don I believe I have sent you this mark for your data base already.

The pistol has the WaA 66 like rons example with the exception that the serial number is on the left receiver under the crown N, also the last two digits are on the side plate and locking bolt in both commercial and military fashion. No mag safety or sear safety.The lugers trigger came with a 69 stamp instead of 79 but that is ok by me as thats how I got her.

James

If you would like I can post pictures tonight

 

[Ron Smith]

Hi Don,
I was just giving James the speculative theory. I don't believe anyone knows for sure except someone who worked on site. This seems to be the on going predominent belief as to why they are not dated, and some have blank toggles. I don't have a clue and don't proffess to. I just think they are interesting Lugers. With my kind of unit marks. Thanks! If you want anymore info from it for your data base. Let me know.

Ron

 

[Edward Tinker]

Excellent Ron, I don't yet have "sneak" yet, and I don't really beleive the sneak theory, but am more inclined to beleive it was the "switch" over and thus 2 manufacturers were using parts, so the ones taking over, i.e. Mauser was still using DWM parts...

Although the "sneak" story has a bit of merit, and could also be true, but I am not inclined to beleive it.

Ed

 

[Ron Smith]

Yo Ed, Did'nt you say that you had an "R" suffix without the chamber date? What kind of proofs does it have?

James, post some photos. I would like to see it. Ron

 

[Edward Tinker]

yes, I know, kind of like an out of sequence Test, it is in the "approved" area


Ed

 

[donmaus]

James, I do have yours in my database but would like to see a photo of the unit marks to be sure I know what was crossed out and how. I'm finding these pistols with cancelled unit marks to be fascinating. There's a lot of history that I suspect has been overlooked as a result of collectors listing only the surviving marks. Even the fact that an earlier mark has been completely ground off can tell a story!

 

[lugerlou]

Don

Stand by pictures a coming.Will start new post

 

[Policeluger]

Don, you believe that blank chambers and toggles were not used to decieve allies, do you believe in "G" and "K" date Lugers, and what is the explanition for these?.....Ed, we both need to "sneak" over to Ron's and grab this one, its nice!

 

[Ron Smith]

Hey Howard, I never did get a good look at the "7.65 cross out" that you had at Reno. Whats the deal on it? Can you post photos? Or did you, and I missed it? It looked interesting.

Ron

 

[Policeluger]

Ed, if you got a nice picture of it please post it for Ron, if not I'll take some more...let me know

 

[donmaus]

Howard,
In addition to the apparent openness with which the Landjägerei were rearmed with t and u block Lugers in 1929 (Weimar Lugers, pp. 32-33), my speculation about these is based on a list of about 135 s, t and u block Lugers compiled by Jim Cate in the late 70s and early 80s. While most of these have blank toggles, there are a number of DWM toggles scattered throughout the list. If the blank toggles were meant to deceive the Allies, I would think that all these Lugers would have had them. It certainly would take no genius to figure out that s/n 7000t with a blank toggle was manufactured by the same company at the same time as s/n 6999t with a DWM toggle. With the exception of some Stoeger marked Lugers (with DWM toggles), all or nearly all of the listed pistols went to police units, mostly Landjägerei. I don't think the police were all that insistent on chamber dating or toggle logos. If there was an attempt to deceive the Allies, it was a p_____ poor effort!

I don't know much about the G and K date Lugers. However, since the 29 BKIW pistols were manufactured before the Nazis took over and the G and K date Mauser Lugers were manufactured under Nazi rule when serious clandestine rearming of the military was being pursued, I'm inclined to believe the word "sneak" is applicable to these.

 

[Policeluger]

Have you ever noticed that 1934 "K" dates were put in 1934 dated holsters, not much sneak as some assume, but still guns prior to 1933 were not dated I believe to keep within the Treaty of Versilles and were I believe a prelude to code datas....until such time as this period is proved to not be a sneak period of production, I think "sneak" works....I do want to look closer into this, and sometime soon will send you a list of my "sneak" guns for your study.

 

[Edward Tinker]

agreed Howard, that SWAG works for me.

Ed

 

[donmaus]

Howard,
One of the fascinations of the Weimar period is that so many theories can coexist. I've found it possible to entertain several simultaneously myself.

I'd be very interested in your list of "sneaks."

 

[Jan C Still]

Ron
Excellent photographs and presentation of your 29 DWM, manufactured by BKIW in 1928/1929 for the police.
Thanks
Jan


The term "SNEEK" was first coined by a well known dealer (and in the Luger Journal) about 25/30 years ago. At the time it was claimed that the unit markings were SA SS (really mostly Prussian Landjagerei) and the Lugers were remanufactured/reworked by Mauser in 1933 to hide secret rearming. (see page 203-217 Third Reich Lugers; and page v. 31-34, 66-67, 100-102, 146-154, Weimar Lugers.)
Jan