[Grunt]

I'm trying to identify a Front Grip Strap Mark found on a Luger.
The Mark is as follows: SP.Bn.857 I interpret the SP. to be the
Municipal police Force Podsdam,and 857 to be the weapon mumber.
Can any one inform me of the Bn.meaning?This weapon is in the
collection of a frind! Thank You,Tom

 

[cj029]

Tom,

I don't have an answer for you, but I too would like to find out the identity of this marking. I have a 1920 dated Alphabet DWM, Sn:4647n, 9mm,with Weimar E/ArA4 acceptance stamps and sear safety, marked on the front strap: S.P. Bn. 241. The number 241 is also stamped on the rear of the frame above the lanyard loop.

The "S.P.Bn." marking is probably a police marking from some unit, but it is not identified in any of the reference material I have.

Can someone else in the forum identify this marking?

 

[cj029]

Tom,

I forgot to sign my above post. My apologies. I've been reviewing several books, and have found a photo of an "S.P. Bn". marked Luger in Harry Jones book:"Luger Variations",(1959).It's on page 148, and shows a front strap marked: "SP.Bn. (number X'd out) followed by: 1198. It must have been a large police unit! I know Jones book is old, and a lot of information has come to light since its publication, but I still enjoy the pictures.

I also reviewed Jan Still's excellent book:"Weimar and Early Nazi Lugers", and found an illustration on page 140, figure 38b, which pretty well describes my Luger except for the front strap markings, which are for a different police unit. The serial number of that piece is:4134n. Jan says that the "n" suffix is out of sequence for that variation.

Is your friends Luger in the "n" suffix serial number range?

In the meantime, I'm still looking, maybe research will turn up something yet.

Charles

 

[Edward Tinker]

Tom, where is the SP marked? Normal area, or towards the "toe" of the grip?

Ed

 

[Grunt]

Ed,it is marked on the front Grip Strap,in the
fashion normally found.
Charles,The weapon has the Dove proof marks on the frame.Has a sear safety,no sign of a mag safety.One matching wood bottom mag.I am trying
to contact the owner,when I do,I'll arrange another visit,I examine the weapon closely and
provide additional info to you! Tom

 

[Jan C Still]

Thomas
Re SP.Bn.857.
I cannot find a Bn. There is a B, Bg, Br, and a Bd in the Prussian State Police orders. It may be some sort of additional unit modifier. (The magnitude of the weapon number strongly indicates a police stamp.)

As you stated S.P. is Schutzpolizei Potsdam.

I would speculate that the original unit mark (probably Bn) should have been crossed out when the new mark (probably S.P.) was added. The unit stamper may have made a mistake or a series of mistakes.
Jan

 

[klaus]

quote:Originally posted by Grunt

I'm trying to identify a Front Grip Strap Mark found on a Luger.
The Mark is as follows: SP.Bn.857 I interpret the SP. to be the
Municipal police Force Podsdam,and 857 to be the weapon mumber.
Can any one inform me of the Bn.meaning?This weapon is in the
collection of a frind! Thank You,Tom

Grunt,

"SP.Bn.857" translates to "Saechsische Schutzpolizei Bautzen
Waffe 857".

Klaus

 

[Grunt]

Thanks to everyone for the input.
Tom

 

[LU1900]

I see a new one , but actualy don't know the sérial number:


Download Attachment: SP.Bn.906. sur dwm 1920.jpg
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And top :

Download Attachment: SP.Bn.906. sur dwm 1920.top. jpg.jpg
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[donmaus]

Hi Pat,

I believe these marks are from the Schupo of Bremen. Any chance of getting the serial number of the gun and the acceptances on the right side of the receiver?

 

[LU1900]

Yes I've got the pics now , and the serial number seems to be 4446"q"

Download Attachment: SP.Bn suffix.jpg
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Download Attachment: SP.Bn.906. sur dwm lat.drt.jpg
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Download Attachment: SP.Bn.906. sur dwm lat.g.jpg
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[donmaus]

Thanks very much Patrice.

 

[CDB]

Charles, cj029:
If you find out why there is a number stamped on the rear of the frame on your luger please let me know what it means. I have an Erfurt Luger serial number 531 (l) with a SP.19. stamp and the number 1924 stamped in the same location as yours. See below:

Download Attachment: LUGER 11.jpg
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Download Attachment: LUGER 13.jpg
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Thanks, this group knows everything!

Dean Burley

 

[Dwight Gruber]

Patrice,

That is a very interesting Luger you have showed us. The inspector and proof marks on the right receiver are unusual, and the gun appears to have been numbered originally in the military style.

If you could tell us please, what are the marks which appear on the barrel? Does the barrel have a witness mark? With close examination, can you report if the original right receiver numbers appear to have been removed and replaced?

--Dwight

 

[LU1900]

Dwight,
The gun seems to be in his original finish , only the takedouwn lever nor original , for me the numbers aren't remouved or replaced


Download Attachment: barrel number.jpg
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What about the proof mark , seems normal for 1921 ...

 

[Dwight Gruber]

Patrice,

That particular eagle stamp is uncommon. It is not one I am familiar with as a 1921-era proof. Costanzo, whose description is suspect, documents this stamp on 1933 reworks of military and commercial pistols. Your gun is actually a rather clear example of those proofs.

I just noticed that I mis-spoke in my previous message, I was actually wondering if you could see evidence of the right receiver proofs being removed or replaced?

This gun is numbered in the military style, which precludes it being Alphabet Commercial production. Is the same eagle proof stamped on the barrel? Frankly, the first, best explanation for these stamps is complete re-inspection, proofing, and acceptance after barrrel replacement. I can't imagine another reason for them. I have been hoping that some characteristic of the pistol would help indicate a date for these proofs, somehow I doubt that is going top happen.

--Dwight

 

[LU1900]

Sorry , I don't have the gun in my hand , a friend send me those pics , and the gun was in old collection since many years.
Not common to do fake stamps on those guns , for a period without value here : nobody is interested for weimar area and value for this gun , less 800$

 

[donmaus]

Dwight,

There are three of these in my database in the 4xxxq serial range marked by the Bremen Schupo and reported to have "Weimar dove proofs," including the one at the head of this thread. I think they are Alphabet DWMs with serial numbers added to the small parts.

 

[Dwight Gruber]

Don,

The "Weimar dove proof" covers a lot of territory. The proofs on the gun Patrice has presented are eagle #148, p.109 of Costanzo. These are very distinctive, and not common. When I hear Weimar dove proof, without photo or Costanzo reference, it brings to mind marks more like #54 and #55 (Costanzo p. 87) and similar.

Check the first picture in the 8/3 post, there are no numbers on the edge of the takedown lever and trigger plate. Also, the center toggle and extractor are numbered on the top. I'd be curious to know corresponding details on your other q suffix examples.

I may be being a little too detail oriented here--the proof details interest me--and I suspect that the nature of the gun reveals something about the proof, rather than the other way around.

--Dwight

 

[Ron Smith]

The Luger doesn't have the mag safety notch cut in the side panel either. Suggesting that it was produced, or at least procured after the mag safeties were discontinued. The "Doves" are unusual...

Ron