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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gentleman,

brown bakelite grips of Krieghoff Lugers are known as "Ritzmann grips" (I wonder why) – they do have a logo HRS , a code number (?) 8964 and the MD logo of the Staatliche Materialprüfungsamt Berlin-Dahlem. A very fine photo of the markings can be found here:

http://gallery.rennlist.com/lugergallery/albun69/PetesHK18a001?full=1

It might be interesting, that the logo (trademark) HRS belonged to a company H. Römmler AG in Spremberg, with a headquarter in Berlin. Shown here is the German trademark No. 349,679 published in German Trademark Gazette ("Warenzeichenblatt"), year 1926, page 1045.



Römmler was one of the biggest plastic producing companies before the end of the war; Römmler was known especially because of their most important invention, a melamine laminate, called RESOPAL (a Römmler trademark, everybody in Germany knows).

Within the MD logo can be found the material composition code T1 and the maker's code "32", which is listed in the manufacturer's code list published in the journal "Kunststoffe" 1939, issue 3, as being the maker's code of H. Römmler Aktiengesellschaft, Spremberg.

Martin

Download Attachment: HRS_WZ-349697_WzBl_1926_S1045.jpg
81.07

(NOTE: photo restored May 07, 2006)
 

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Martin,
Interesting? Gibson in The Krieghoff Parabellum on Page 42 under fine checkered grips states that these grips were made by Hermann Ritzmann & sohne located in Eisfeld. The HRS hallmark is cast in each grip on the reverse side. He also mentions the number 8964 and states that the significance of the number is unknown. So, that's why everyone calls them Ritzmann grips. If you are correct regarding the trademark, then either Gibson was incorrect or Ritzmann was the supplier to Krieghoff after buying them from Rommler. Gibson presents the subject like the trademark belongs to Ritzmann.
Tom
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Dave,

thanks for the photo! Sorry for my "sluip of the pen" mistake. Obviously, the material code within the MD logo is T - not T1 (as later introduced and used by several manufacturers.... i.a. the manufacturer of the Sauer 38-H grips).

Martin
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Tom,

aah... ! Now I remember! Years ago, when Jim Cate and I were chasing for the RWS logo on Sauer Behorden grips, we also discussed the Gibson mentioning of the Ritzmann company and I made a search for any Ritzmann trademark (in hope of any hint to come nearer the RWS logo) . I found: nothing. But I found the HRS trademark, the MD codes and other interesting sources. I don't know, what the Ritzmann company did produce - but for sure, the Krieghoff grips were made by Römmler.

Martin
 

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Martin,
I don't know if you have read the following post regarding Black Bakelite type grips on Mausers.
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4018
Please take a look and give me your opinion how the two subjects may be related, if at all. You seem to be up to speed regarding plastic type material utilized for grip material. Also, do you have any suggestions as to how to identify the black grip material or method of production. The same subject is on the other Luger forum with some different feedback. http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11466
Thanks,
Tom
 

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I believe you will find the 8964 refers NOT to anything but the order/contract - which was consistient with molded products at the time from the suppliers. In the triple mold die pair sets (of 6 each) - all "Ritzmann" grips produced for HK will have "8964" present for HK, as it was, I believe, a "block" in the mold referring to the customer/contract..

Further - RITZMANN was the final supplier to HK and the Rommler trademark should be present, as the original contract was, I believe, tendered by Rommler with Ritzmann as the manufacturer based on their location in Thuringa (I also believe you will find additional Rommler/Ritzmann products outside the scope of this reply) Suhl, as well - is within the Thuringa district. As Martin posted, the Spremberg facility of Rommler is/was well outside that area, and given the HK requirement for "area" suppliers which HK would have access to. This is not unique.

This is not to suggest that Mr. Gibson was incorrect. Rather, I believe his data was incomplete at that time.

John D.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
John,

regarding the "8964" I also do believe, that this is a customer number or some sort like that. And, yes, Römmler (as a big enterprise) also made other bakelite-like products for other customers. Accidentially, I have an old pre-war telephone (still works! And makes a loud "rrrring"), having a telephone receiver which ear piece (screw cap) was made by Römmler (HRS).

Download Attachment: HRS_telephone.jpg
48.4 KB

(NOTE: photo restored may 07, 2006)

There is also a customer number present, as well as the HRS logo and an MD logo. Because of several unscrewing actions, the codes within the MD logo faded away during the decades.


Anyway: I do see no connection to a company Ritzmann. Yes, Spremberg is some 100 miles away from Suhl and it would make sense to entrust a local compaqny with making the grips. But other companies in the Suhl area also ordered plastic grips from outside the area companies: Sauer ordered the grips from Dynamit Nobel in Troisdorf (near Cologne), Haenel (MPi 40) from AEG in Berlin.....


Next: a company Ritzmann isn't listed in the code list for plastic manufacturers:

http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4085

I also do believe, that Gibson's data was incomplete at that time. No big affair! I guess, this will happen to every author of a gun relating book. I, personally, am happy about everybody who can help to eliminate an error in volume II of the Sauer book (and I am convinced: there will be errors!).

Martin

Download Attachment: HRS_telephone.jpg
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http://www.roemmler-kunststofftechnik.de/ is still alive and kicking; still manufactures Bakelite products and the present owner still remembers his father´s contract for the original Krieghoff grips. The US citizen Baker who invented Bakelite also had a small factory in the vicinity of Berlin & was a friend of the Römmler family.

The next myth is the one about the threaded holes in the back of the Römmler grips being specifically made for the grip screws.
 

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Patrick...

Maybe the threaded holes in the back of the grips are not for holding the grip screws (while cleaning the gun...) but maybe for special pulling-out tools to aid in pulling out the hardened grips from their molds. The tools were set in the plastic resin while liquid/soft and had threaded end which would mold to the end of the pull-out tool to allow for a sure pull-out once the resins hardened ???

p.s. I lightened-up the last photo Martin posted up so we can see the details more easily :

Download Attachment: martins photo.jpg
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