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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Kriehoff "mongrel" id. help please.
Greetings to all fellow collectors,

I recently purchased a luger which looks to have been made up from a variety of diferent parts, and it has one oddity that i have never seen before(i am no expert though).

With my other lugers, the top of the frame that the side plate is cut over, "flares out" just in front of the side plate. But this one does not, it is straight.(please see pic). Also the raised part of the s/p is full hight, again, i have not seen one like this before.

The barrel/reciever and toggle assembly bear the krieghoff stamp and all the numbers match(3731). "S" code above chamber.

However, the frame has "Made in Germany" on the front grip strap and is numbered 6611 i. With matching trigger.

The side plate has a letter "A" on the inside and "15" stamped on the underside of the plate.

Appart from that it is quite a nice piece. And i must admit that i only purchased it for the Krieghoff top.(it is the closest i will get to a complete one). :-(

Any information will be greatfully recieved.

regards,

steve.

Download Attachment: krieg. side plate.JPG
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Download Attachment: krieg. detail.JPG
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Download Attachment: krieghoff top.JPG
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DWM.side for comparison......

Download Attachment: DWM. side plt..JPG
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Hello Steve,

The individual who assisted me in sending my previous private e-mail to you encouraged me to post my reply to the Forum as well. However, please see your e-mail for a more detailed and complete response - as well as some considerations insofar as what might still be considered “open” issues regarding your piece. Following is a condensed version of that same e-mail forwarded to you earlier today, but this version may have a wider interest.

Let me take a try at answering your questions, but please note that I don’t have a copy of Gibson nor my notes at the office (where I’m writing this from), so I apologize for not including page references from his excellent publication.

Observations - - -

Based on the rather sparse information provided in the post (it would be very helpful to see some photos of the components individually, and/or other internal stamps noted), I believe what you have is as follows:

Upper: based on the serial number, the toggle stamp and your reference that the barrel is “matched”, the top, appears to be from the “S” production, and within that era, specifically a Late Series “S” (Gibson notes three “S” variations, categorized as “Early”, Mid” and “Late”. Distinguishing the “Late” from the previous versions is most visibly apparent through the differentiation of the toggle stamp, and yours has the latter (Gibson notes as “C-2” Toggle stamp)).

However, more complete information on the internals of the “top” would be very helpful,– to see if it is “matched” as an upper in full – along with any marks/stamps/proofs elsewhere (star, proof, etc) on the right of the receiver, etc.. As well, I can’t make it out, but there appears to be a “stamp” to the right of the serial number? If your receiver serial number is “overstamped”, I believe I may be familiar with it (but, again - I’m unable to tell from your photos whether that is the case or not).

Lower: Krieghoff sold DWM “reworks” for the Commercial market and the Lugers were of DWM manufacture. Since your question only deals with the frame itself, I’ll forgo a lengthy explanation of this specific variation. However, and in line with your serial number observed (“6611i”), these reworks are found in the “i” Series block. I believe Gibson notes specifically between 2000i and 10000i, but leaves open the possibility that HK might have acquired the entire “i” block (10,000 Lugers). As well, it would be proper to have “GERMANY” stamped on it, which would designate exportation. However, it must be noted that yours is marked “Made in Germany” on the front grip strap, is an anomaly to the more prevalent marking.

Further, and as you may know, the small parts are not proper for these Krieghoff - DWM Commercial reworks (trigger, takedown, etc.). Rather, from the parts I can see, they appear to be Mauser and other manufacturer produced parts.

Conclusions - - -

Therefore, based on just these data points, I believe that what you have is a “post-war” Krieghoff of a very specific variation.

As background, at the time the factory was taken by the US 11th Division, there were some quantities of not only HK parts, but as well parts from DWM, Mauser, Simson, etc. Therefore, some of the post war HKs were “put together” by GIs. These tend to be a wide spectrum of fit/finish/parts – and some of these GI “built” post-war HKs can be rather “crude” (some are unable or unsafe to fire, as they are so poorly matched and assembled).

However, and in reference to your piece specifically, a small percent of other Post War HK “parts guns”, such as yours appears to be, are somewhat interesting. Various manufacturers parts (comprised from those which would have been available at the factory at the time of capture) are “matched”. For example – what appears to be a Mauser trigger is “matched” to an entirely different frame. Many of these specific Post War sub-variations are quite interesting insofar as it provides a glimpse of what might have been actually “manufactured” by HK over the years with the remnants of the parts still in the racks - rather then later “counterfeited” or faked HKs. (That’s a different subject altogether, however.)

Overall, and in context to the broad categorization of “Post War” Krieghoffs, there are several variations noted by Gibson, and this sub-variation is not specifically noted, but it does not diminish its existence in the least, as yours is not the only noted piece. Let me walk through a couple of the factors taken into consideration and as to why I don’t believe yours is a “mongrel” or Russian rework:

The frame is in the correct serial block for a DWM rework (“i”). It is probable that there were DWM frames at the factory when it was captured. As probable, some of those frames would have been from the HK “Commercial” rework series, amongst others. As well, given the inconsistency of the “appropriate markings/stamps”, it is highly unlikely that this frame would have “sold” commercially by the factory – lending credence to the hypothesis that it was still at the factory when this piece was “assembled” Post War;

The “top” is what appears to be externally correct for a “Late” S series, notwithstanding what internals are fitted (firing pin, ejector, etc. may be included on yours) –again, it would be interesting to note the internals, toggle ears, the barrel markings, as well as the other stamps/proofs that may be present;

The “matching” of the small parts (those few that you mention anyway) to the last two digits of the frame serial number, even though from different manufactures and eras of Luger production, has been noted previously in a small variation of other Post-War HKs. It is also noted that there were parts from other manufacturers available at the factory when it was captured. It would also be interesting to note if the safety, hold-open, etc. would have any HK markings – or any markings either matching it to the frame or a specific manufacturer;

Sideplate: I’ve never seen one similar to yours on an HK – parts gun, prototype, or Post War. Whether it is a cheap aftermarket piece purchased in later years to replace a lost sideplate; or is specific to a certain manufacturer, I am not certain. Hopefully Jan, John, Tom Heller or another collector can assist on that piece specifically. However, if it is a recognized manufacturer, then it is indeed possible that it too, would be correct for a HK Post War Parts Luger within the defined scope as I described the variation above.

I hope you find this of interest regarding your piece,

- John D.
 

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Hello John D.,

The sideplate in question reminds me of the variation of side plates W+F Bern used on their Swiss lugers. The raised, vertical "island" on the side plate extends up to the posterior top edge of the side plate. I believe this variation started with the (Correction on 10-15-03 : 3rd. variation) of the 1906 W+F Bern and continued with the 1929 W+F Bern. The width of the "island" appears to be more close to the M1929 side plate...

A good photo of the side plate off the luger might yield a better look.
 

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Hi Pete,

Thanks for taking the time to post those. I can see the family resemblance - but after seeing the photos - I'm sticking with my first guess on the sideplate "...a cheap aftermarket piece purchased in later years..".

But "closeness only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades" - and since I don't pitch horseshoes.(Reminds me of all the auction sites "RARE GERMAN GENERALS LUGER - ALMOST MATCHING, WITH PEARL GRIPS AND THE INSCRIPTION OF "BYF FROM AH"!!".) My guess is it's a dandy $500 - $700 shooter – close to a post-war from what is shown, but “no cigar”. Jury os still out on the frame, internals, etc. - but without a sideplate - they really don't matter.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Dear John D and Peter Ebbing,

I am most gratefull for your replies.

I will take some more detailed photo's for you guys to take a look at.

I would think this Luger(the frame at least) has seen A LOT of use, as the bluing on the front and back grip straps is nearly completly worn away,rendering the "Made in Germany" hardly discernable.

There is something else about this pistol that i have not seen on other examples....the walnut grips are very "skinny", not raised like my other Lugers at all.

And John, I am sorry, but i deleted your email without reading it, please mail me again.

I will post more images asap.

Many thanks to you both.

Best regards,

Steve.
 

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Steve, I had forwarded Johns reply to you, so I sent it again, renamed the subject line to say this:

Luger info from John D
 

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Hi Steve and Ed,

Ed - thanks for the resend. Steve - it may have been too large to send through the Forum, so I asked Ed to send it for me...

Steve Wrote: "John, I am sorry, but i deleted your email without reading it,..."
No problem. Truth be known, it's a somewhat common occurrence (no comments from the rest of you.. :)

Anyway - what may be most helpful is to detail strip (well, "detail strip" your Luger, it is your choice as to whether to remain fully clothed while doing this :) and note any markings on the small parts (safety, hold open, firing pin, etc.). Also - if you remove the right grip panel, could you post if there are any stamps there - such as "7", a star, etc. Finally - it would be a terrific benefit to understand the frame manufacturer - and whether this is a DWM commercial frame or, for example - a later Mauser "i" frame.

Grips - the only thing I noticed about your grips previously was the checkering pattern, which is incorrect.

Anyway - please look at the "Discussion" section in my e-mail for other issues.

- John
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi John and Ed,
Ed, many thanks for forwarding Johns email to me.

John, i have just bought a white highlighting pencil, so i will strip down the luger and get the best shots i can for you. There are going to be a lot of images heading your way...!!(i had better keep my clothes on, i'm not a pretty sight, and besides, my wife will think i've turned into some sort of prevert....!!) :)

Regards,

Steve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi John D,
Ok, here we go. I hope the picture quality is good enough for you.
The proof marks are Krieghoff 1935/39 according to "Lugers at Random"
page 42 proof no. 54.


Download Attachment: proofs.JPG
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Download Attachment: slant view.JPG
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Download Attachment: frame front 6611i.JPG
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Download Attachment: reciever sideplate 3731.JPG
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Download Attachment: frame.JPG
59.34 KB Looks like "FT 1"

Download Attachment: front grip strap.JPG
60.03 KB "MADE IN GERMANY"

Download Attachment: chamber S.JPG
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Download Attachment: takedown lever.JPG
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Download Attachment: underside of sideplate.JPG
58.52 KB Numbered 18

Download Attachment: interior sideplate.JPG
60.18 KB Stamped "A"

Download Attachment: trigger.JPG
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Download Attachment: breech block.JPG
59.62 KB E/2 + E/2 + 31

Download Attachment: inside front and back links.JPG
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Download Attachment: coupling bar.JPG
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Download Attachment: sear bar.JPG
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Download Attachment: back link.JPG
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Download Attachment: underside of barrel.JPG
60.09 KB The crossed swords stamp is the proof house de-activation mark. No serial numbr on barrel.

Download Attachment: grip.JPG
59.87 KB Are the grips bad? There are no numbers or letters and the insides seem to have been varnished...!!?

As you can see from the pics, it has been de-activated, butchered more like.

John, if you need any more info, please let me know.

I purchased the luger with a 1938 holster which had a loading/take down tool which "looks like" either a E/211 or a E/63.

Download Attachment: takedown tool.JPG
59.18 KB

As always, I will be most gratefull for any info.

Best regards,

Steve. [email protected]
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Many thanks to John D for helping me out with this particular luger identification.....Very, very helpfull........

The time and effort John has put into this for me is greatly appreciated.

Best regards to all........

Steve.
 

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Steve, I need to invite you over to my house, those pictures are worth a 1,000 words, thanks for taking the time to show us your Luger in such detail.

Ed
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Hi Ed,

No trouble at all, my pleasure.

Thanks again to John, and the forum in general, for all the help.

And Ed, I will take you up on your offer of a visit, I will keep an eye out for the flight tickets....lol :)

Regards,

Steve.
 
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