Dwight, my "Frankenschloss" Luger has E/N & E/J proofs IAW the 1939 Proof Laws (that weren't actually used until 1940, from what I read). As far as Lithuanian-specific proofs, I don't know.
Lithuanian Luger query
I'd appreciate being edified on the subject of Lithuanian contract Lugers.
I have seen one (not really examined yet), and recognize the "Gates of Vilnius" stamp on the top of the breech. I believe there was a profile of one on the old Forum, iirc it had "Frankenschloss, Suhl" on the right frame rail and a passel of Eagle/Somethings stamped horizontally on the right frame and receiver.
Do I remember correctly? What are the figures under the Eagles? Are there any other identifying marks to look for, what proofs should I expect to see? My understanding is that these are all reworks, are they rust blued or salt blued? What caliber are these guns? What are proper magazines and mag markings for these Lugers?
Appreciate very much the time and thought anyone takes to respond.
--Dwight
I have seen one (not really examined yet), and recognize the "Gates of Vilnius" stamp on the top of the breech. I believe there was a profile of one on the old Forum, iirc it had "Frankenschloss, Suhl" on the right frame rail and a passel of Eagle/Somethings stamped horizontally on the right frame and receiver.
Do I remember correctly? What are the figures under the Eagles? Are there any other identifying marks to look for, what proofs should I expect to see? My understanding is that these are all reworks, are they rust blued or salt blued? What caliber are these guns? What are proper magazines and mag markings for these Lugers?
Appreciate very much the time and thought anyone takes to respond.
--Dwight
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Dwight, my "Frankenschloss" Luger has E/N & E/J proofs IAW the 1939 Proof Laws (that weren't actually used until 1940, from what I read). As far as Lithuanian-specific proofs, I don't know.
3
Hi Dwight,
Talk about digging up an old posting...here is a recent one for auction by the MidWest folks...photos are taken fromn Auction Arms and not the Kontos site :
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6556481
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Talk about digging up an old posting...here is a recent one for auction by the MidWest folks...photos are taken fromn Auction Arms and not the Kontos site :
http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6556481
Download Attachment:
midwest 1.jpg57.65KB
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midwest 2.jpg100.49KB
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midwest 3.jpg121.18KB
http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/08lith.htm
This one sold at Phoenix Investment Arms recently...they still have good photos with details for your survey...
This one sold at Phoenix Investment Arms recently...they still have good photos with details for your survey...
I am not a WWII luger expert, and the following is my opinion and based only on the Litvak presented by Phoenix at the link Pete posted above..
It sure looks like someone got really creative with a 1920's commercial. A 1940 or 1941 German government issue with a wooden bottom magazine, and a 3 3/4 barrel marked CAL 7.62 (not KAL 7.62) is a little difficult for me to comprehend. So are the strawed parts on a Suhl rework in 1940/41. Is this probable? Krieghoff was happily at work in Suhl at this time. Was Frankenschloss operating at the same time as Krieghoff?
The serial number on the Phoenix gun is 694 with no suffix: this does not match the DWM 1920 commercial range (75441 - 91511), the alphabet DWM (i to r suffix) or the 29DWM commercial (s,t,u suffix) [From Still, Weimar lugers.] I would propose that the E/N commercial proof is out of place on a DWM the toggle. The 694 serial number could be a Mauser Banner, but this has a DWM toggle.
Is the lazy E/N noted on other Third Reich commercial contracts?
The Latvian contract would be contemporary with the date range proposed by Phoenix. The Latvian issue Lugers are reported by Still in Third Reich Lugers as Mauser Banners in the serial range 3001v to 5200v with 11 pistols having unreported sn. These were however 4' 9MM OR 4 3/4 7.62 MM
It sure looks like someone got really creative with a 1920's commercial. A 1940 or 1941 German government issue with a wooden bottom magazine, and a 3 3/4 barrel marked CAL 7.62 (not KAL 7.62) is a little difficult for me to comprehend. So are the strawed parts on a Suhl rework in 1940/41. Is this probable? Krieghoff was happily at work in Suhl at this time. Was Frankenschloss operating at the same time as Krieghoff?
The serial number on the Phoenix gun is 694 with no suffix: this does not match the DWM 1920 commercial range (75441 - 91511), the alphabet DWM (i to r suffix) or the 29DWM commercial (s,t,u suffix) [From Still, Weimar lugers.] I would propose that the E/N commercial proof is out of place on a DWM the toggle. The 694 serial number could be a Mauser Banner, but this has a DWM toggle.
Is the lazy E/N noted on other Third Reich commercial contracts?
The Latvian contract would be contemporary with the date range proposed by Phoenix. The Latvian issue Lugers are reported by Still in Third Reich Lugers as Mauser Banners in the serial range 3001v to 5200v with 11 pistols having unreported sn. These were however 4' 9MM OR 4 3/4 7.62 MM
The Lithuanian contract Lugers have been around for a long time. I find the Gates of Vilnius crest to be interesting and an impressive crest for a Luger. A Lithuanian Browning HP was one of the first collector grade pistols that I purchased. However, over the years I have not found any information to validate the Lithunian crest on a Luger. Being conservative in my purchases I have never aquired such a Luger.
Jan
LITHUANIAN HIGH POWER Jan C Still http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=671
Jan
LITHUANIAN HIGH POWER Jan C Still http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=671
Thanks Jan,
The Browning High Power psted by Jan establishes a date range where Third Reich / Lithuanian comercial activities existed. We might expect the proofs on Lithuanian Lugers to conform to this range.
Dwight, could you chime in with the proofs and other markings on your Lithuanian?
The Browning High Power psted by Jan establishes a date range where Third Reich / Lithuanian comercial activities existed. We might expect the proofs on Lithuanian Lugers to conform to this range.
Dwight, could you chime in with the proofs and other markings on your Lithuanian?
Heinz,
If I had a Lithuanian, I certainly woould have commented before now. The initial inquiry came at a time when I had a few extra dollars in my pocket, I had seen one available locally some time before, and I was thinking I might like to own it. The next time I saw the owner he told me that he had sold it some time earlier, so the whole thing became moot.
--Dwight
If I had a Lithuanian, I certainly woould have commented before now. The initial inquiry came at a time when I had a few extra dollars in my pocket, I had seen one available locally some time before, and I was thinking I might like to own it. The next time I saw the owner he told me that he had sold it some time earlier, so the whole thing became moot.
--Dwight
You mention that the Hi-Power posted by Jan establishes a date range where 3rd Reich/Lithuanian commercial activities existed.quote:Originally posted by Heinz
Thanks Jan,
The Browning High Power psted by Jan establishes a date range where Third Reich / Lithuanian comercial activities existed. We might expect the proofs on Lithuanian Lugers to conform to this range.
Dwight, could you chime in with the proofs and other markings on your Lithuanian?
I am confused as to this, as the Lithaunian marked Hi-Power was sold to Lithiania by FN long prior to its being under german control. So would it not seem that the Hi-Power would be evidence of Belgian/Lithuanian commercial activities not 3rd Reich/Lithuanian commercial activities ??
Charlie, You are of course right about the High Power and a Belgian Third Reich connection. My point was the Lithuanian High Power with the "Gates of Vilnius" markings establishes a baseline where Lithuania was indeed purchasing pistols from outside sources and marking them with the Vilnius proof. This is important because the history of Lithuania from 1919 to 1940 is chaotic and the history of Vilnius is even more so. Vilnius went back and forth between Lithuania and Poland. Vilnius was controlled by Poland from 1920 to 1939. A concise overview of the history can be found at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania#The_Vilnius_region
I would say we are looking at a five year window where from 1935 to 1940 where a proposed Lithuanian contract might have historically existed.
Lithuania ceases to exist except as a Russian puppet state in 1940.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania#The_Vilnius_region
I would say we are looking at a five year window where from 1935 to 1940 where a proposed Lithuanian contract might have historically existed.
Lithuania ceases to exist except as a Russian puppet state in 1940.
Dwight,
You might reach out to Sam Buscemi. I recall he bought a nice-looing one from Shattuck at a Tulsa show about 3 years ago. I saw it in person, but all I can remember is that it was a bright gun.
You might reach out to Sam Buscemi. I recall he bought a nice-looing one from Shattuck at a Tulsa show about 3 years ago. I saw it in person, but all I can remember is that it was a bright gun.
Found this nice graphic of a Lithuanian crest.
I have heard the terms " Gates of Vilnius " and/or the " Pillars of Gediminas ".
Are both terms correct ?
Download Attachment: Lithuanian crest.jpg
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I have heard the terms " Gates of Vilnius " and/or the " Pillars of Gediminas ".
Are both terms correct ?
Download Attachment:
Lithuanian crest.jpg10.67 KB
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columns_of_Gediminas
It makes much more sense than the "Gates"
--Dwight
It makes much more sense than the "Gates"
--Dwight
Since the Columns of Gediminas are associated with the Lithuanian Republic, who was in conflict with Germany over the western part of the Republic through most of its existence, it would seem rasonable to find this mark on the Browning High Power as a contract pistol and strange to find it on a Luger. Also it does make more sense than "the Gates of Vilnius" since Poland wad holdin Vilnius at that time
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania#The_Vilnius_region
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Lithuania#The_Vilnius_region
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
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