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I got this rig on Ebay recently. I will load a number of photos. It's quite an interesting rig and both the pouch and holster are marked "M.LIEMANN BERLIN 1915". It includes three magazines all numbered and marked the same; 2438a +.

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First of all I will state that I believe that the holster and maybe the pouch were not made in 1915 but rather assembled sometime after the war from parts laying around Liemann's place.

There is no accomodation for attaching the holster to a stock. The closure strap is one that was intended for a standard LP08 holster and it has been modified with the addition of only a single hole to take the buckle pin.

The buckle is painted black. Isn't this out of the norm for WWI period holsters? I have a post WWI commercial with black buckle.

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Further clues that lead me to believe it was post world-war-one job are the commercial snap used on the tool pouch, and the lack of side disks on the cleaning rod cover. The snow flake design on the former is quite common to imperial and Weimar period private purchase items. I have also seen it on a WWII era shoulder holster.

In several of the photos you will see where the dark brown dye bled into the underside of the leather. This may have happened when dying an already completed holster to order. Alot of the probably unissued 1918 holsters I have seen were a real blond color.

Note that the lid of the holster is non-standard although, judging by the stitching and beaded edge, it is German holster shop made.



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Assuming it is post war, I further believe it was made for someone in Germany. The ink inscription on the inside of the flap is in a style consistent with German usage. It reads," Keckstadt, Berlin, Schoeneberg." I believe Schoeneberg is a suburb or district of Berlin. Keckstadt may be a person's name. Anybody have a Berlin telephone book circa 1920-1930?



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The idea of an unfinished holster laying around a shop for the last two years of WWI may sound questionable BUT remember back to a discussion some time ago on this forum. The question was raised as to why so many 1915 dated LP08 holsters when that was the year in which the fewest pistols were made?

If, as I believe, the government instructed its contractors to really crank out LP08 holsters in 1915 in anticipation of coming needs, then instructed most to revert to P08 holsters, one might find an unfinished holster laying about in 1920. Liemann does not appear in Bender's work and I don't know that I have ever seen a holster by them before. Perhaps Liemann was only a temporary holster maker and spent most of his efforts on some other items.

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I had a hell of a time pulling the cleaning rod out of its pouch. I was quite surprised to find it wrapped in some textile for swabbing the bore. I was also pleased with the double proofed rod. I am sending the whole rig off to a friend who is far better versed in holsters than I am to evaluate.

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The seller told me that the former owner sold the rig as the pistol had been stolen. I am trying to track him down.
 

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George

Good pictures,specific to the magazines you may want to lean towards an Erfurt supplied luger as it has been my experience that the suffix letter is more commonly found on the bottom of the magazines procured for the Erfurt luger,the + symbol usually denotes the extra magazines as you are aware, possibly thier is a fourth magazine that went with this luger and may be still with it.The lettering looks good but that ink stamp is to perfect for military production so you may be correct with your post war assesment.Good luck in tracking down the luger.
 

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This was posted in the Luger forum about this holster while back. Gotta consider the source though.

The name in the holster flap "Keckstadt" is an uncommon German/East Prussian name which originates from the area "Pempen", in the Memel territory. Before WWI this was east Prussia, after the war was given to Lithuania. It was retaken by Hitler and lost again after WWII to the Soviet Union and is now again part of Lithuania. The next line in the holster is "Berlin, Schonberg", Schonberg being a part of Berlin. This gentleman was most likely from Eastern Prussia, (only one Keckstadt listed there pre WWI),was involved in WWI, moved to Berlin after 1923 when his homeland was annexed by the Lithuanains, and then "WERNER KECKSTADT 10.2.1944" (his son?) is listed in the archives of the war dead. Pure conjecture, but this is a very uncommon name. And there is only one listed descendant in current records. Below are some of the references:

rk

Keckstadt, Fritz Bauer Pempen (damals Ostpreussen und Litauen - heute Litauen)

Nach dem 1. Weltkrieg musste Deutschland das Memelgebiet abgeben. Mit dem 10. Januar 1920 wurde das Memelgebiet unter allierte Kontrolle gestellt. Aus Teilen der Kreise Tilsit und Ragnit wurde der neue Kreis Pogegen gebildet, so dass sich die folgende Statistik ergab:
Am 24. Januar 1923 übernahm Litauen das Memelgebiet.

Am 22. März 1939 wurde der Vertrag über die Wiedervereinigung des Memelgebietes mit dem Deutschen Reich unterzeichnet.

Nach dem zweiten Weltkrieg gehörte das Memelgebiet erst zur Sowjetunion, die es dann wieder an Litauen gab.

WERNER KECKSTADT 10.2.1944
 

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This was posted in the Luger forum about this holster while back. Gotta consider the source though.

The name in the holster flap "Keckstadt" is an uncommon German/East Prussian name which originates from the area "Pempen", in the Memel territory. Before WWI this was east Prussia, after the war was given to Lithuania. It was retaken by Hitler and lost again after WWII to the Soviet Union and is now again part of Lithuania. The next line in the holster is "Berlin, Schonberg", Schonberg being a part of Berlin. This gentleman was most likely from Eastern Prussia, (only one Keckstadt listed there pre WWI),was involved in WWI, moved to Berlin after 1923 when his homeland was annexed by the Lithuanains, and then "WERNER KECKSTADT 10.2.1944" (his son?) is listed in the archives of the war dead. Pure conjecture, but this is a very uncommon name. And there is only one listed descendant in current records. Below are some of the references:

rk

Keckstadt, Fritz Bauer Pempen (damals Ostpreussen und Litauen - heute Litauen)

Nach dem 1. Weltkrieg musste Deutschland das Memelgebiet abgeben. Mit dem 10. Januar 1920 wurde das Memelgebiet unter allierte Kontrolle gestellt. Aus Teilen der Kreise Tilsit und Ragnit wurde der neue Kreis Pogegen gebildet, so dass sich die folgende Statistik ergab:
Am 24. Januar 1923 übernahm Litauen das Memelgebiet.

Am 22. März 1939 wurde der Vertrag über die Wiedervereinigung des Memelgebietes mit dem Deutschen Reich unterzeichnet.

Nach dem zweiten Weltkrieg gehörte das Memelgebiet erst zur Sowjetunion, die es dann wieder an Litauen gab.

WERNER KECKSTADT 10.2.1944
 

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Nice item George I'm glad to see it's yours now.I think like other it was for commercial market after 1918 but everybody hope to have the same ( specially me )
 

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Nice item George I'm glad to see it's yours now.I think like other it was for commercial market after 1918 but everybody hope to have the same ( specially me )
 

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George sent this holster and 3 magazine pouch to me to see what I could see. I have left below some communications I had with him about this very interesting ensemble. If there is anyone out there with an authoritative opinion, I welcome any and all comments about this piece.

From what I can tell right off it looks right as rain. Not all is just as a Military but the stitching looks 100% correct. Just a few oddities. I would guess it's either a special order commercial or a Weimar fill in. Don't really reconcile the date or configuration with a 1915 Military.It was late in the war that the German land based Marines went to the belt loop carry instead of the stock block and I would assume it would be the same with Artillery's. Any 1915 dated Artillery, I would think, should have the stock block configuration.
It is so well made that it had to be done by a Military contractor Master Sattler. I just wonder about the top. I know it's the simplest to make it like a Navy instead of molded. I wonder since it was not going to be inspected or accepted to the Military system if the Sattler decided to make the simpler top. But why then the 1915 date? This was a purely Military feature...It could have been left over parts that were already dated but not put together until the Weimar period. I don't know enough about the methods of construction of Luger holsters to say if they were molded, then dated and sewn together later.If these were leftovers in a Sattlers shop they could have been put together anytime after the war.The closure strap is punched for the stock strap method of carry, not the belt system.
The interior tool pouch is unusual as it is not in the military fashion of using the hammered on metal stud and hole in the top flap. Instead it uses a button snap similar to those used on Dutch holsters and magazine pouch closures for pin punches and tool pouches.

But that brings up the three mag pouch, military dated and yet they were not issued, that anyone knows about.The three mag pouch is almost certainly commercial in general. .I love puzzles but this one might never be answered.

Another interesting facet on the holster, it was apparently dyed after construction. It has always been my belief the Germans provided whole hides to Sattler contractors that were already dyed and polished.

The cleaning rod seems to have some very rough cloth attached, very fibrous. I would guess it's flax. Or linen. Not woven . While looking at this I noticed some rust and pitting on the rod down near the cloth. Small but there for some time.

The lifting strap was a big surprise for me. I really didn't give it much thought as I supposed it would be like every other Military Artillery but No! It is installed like a regular P-08. Inserted into the back lining instead of attached in two places, in the middle back and the top edge of the holster. Another way this holster differs from any other we know about.

Jerry Burney
 

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Jerry,

the fibre really is flax - a necessary item if you take traditional Luger lore seriously. It was also the official German Army issue pull-through material in both World Wars. The fibre was twisted around the serrations on the rod. The final pull- through was the flax twist dipped in Balistol (also used as a cure for almost every ailment imagineable).

Balistol and flax are still widely used in Deutschland and sold in most gun shops.

A German cleaning rod should really always have a twist of flax on it.

Patrick

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Patrick, Nice to hear this interesting information! Another piece of the puzzle. Thanks, Jerry
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
"But that brings up the three mag pouch, military dated and yet they were not issued, that anyone knows about.The three mag pouch is almost certainly commercial in general. .I love puzzles but this one might never be answered."

[/quote]

Well, it's time to revive this old thread. As Jerry stated above, and as I heartily agreed, no one could ever show me where the Imperial German Army used three mag pouches. The most fun thing about Lugers and Absolutes is that they are often absolutely wrong.

Well "absolute this" just fresh in from a friend in Germany.

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Dang, now that is nice to see! So Geo, that 3 pouch that you have, its a bit more interesting ey?

Ed
 
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