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Hey,

I recently aquired this Luger pistol from my grandpa when he passed away. He traded it to a man who took it off of a German in WW2 for his shotgun in the 1960s. 2 years later the same man came back and wanted to trade back, but my grandpa held strong and kept the Luger. Its quite a cool heirloom and even extra cool for me because I am a big WW2 buff. Please help me ID this pistol.

Its serial number is 4873 and the last 2 digits of it, 73, are on every part of the gun including the magazine. On the left side of the reciever near the barrel is an N with a like crown above it. That same image of the N with the crown is pictured horizontally on the side of the bolt. On the top of the bolt is this squiggly thing. Must be cursive letters but I cant make them out. Underneath the barrel is the serial number, and a bird. also anohte squiggly line thing but i cant make that out either. Right underneath that on the reciver is the serial number again and anohter circle squiggly.

On the bottem of the magazine the serial number is present along with a number 2 above it with a bird above that with a 6 or a G underneath the bird. Below all that is a plus sign. On the back of the mag are the words SCHMEISSER and below that is the word HAENE somthing inside an arrow. Below that is like a cursive letter, but its unknown to me.

It also came with a leather case. Inside is some tool pouch. i was just wondering what went in there when it was in use. On the back of the case GENSCHOW & Co.A-G. BERLIN are all in a circle. Next to that is WaA387 below like a bird. Next to that is the year 1937.

Here are the pictures of all of that:



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Download Attachment: luger6.JPG
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Download Attachment: luger8.JPG
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Download Attachment: luger10.JPG
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Download Attachment: luger11.JPG
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Download Attachment: luger 6.JPG
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Download Attachment: P1010013.JPG
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Here ya go. Please help me out. I am very interested to see what this was.

-Houston
 

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The squiglly thing on top of the "toggle" is a DWM, the manufacturers name. What numbers are on teh very top of it? i.e. on top of the receiver?

Provide pictures of the top, both sides (full pictures of the gun).

The magazine has both army and police charectoristics, having a + which usually means the 2nd or extra magazine, while a # 2 also means the same thing. Many Haenel magazines were for police, but were also made for the army. The inspection stamp is an Eagle 6, so was inspected by Simson.

The "holster" for a luger contained a "loading tool" and you can buy real ones and fake ones from many sources, they were used as a screwdriver and to load the magazine.


On the left of the gun, you will see a "sear safety", put there in 1933, it is an obvious sign that it was used as a police gun during that time period. It also appears to ahve had a magazine safety, i.e. the reweld spot on the left of the gun below the sear safety.

Being serial number 4873 q there is a very good chance it was made in 1927 and is called an Weimar Alphabet SN DWM Luger, but pictures from the top and both sides would be good.
 

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GlockMasta

Welcome to the forum. I see you finally realized that the old luger was worthy of a photo presentation and a good one at that. By all means do not separate the pistol from the magazine even though she is worthy of her weight in silver.

The crown /N is a commercial proof not a military one and many Po8 were manufactured during the Weimar era as a way to help Germany out of her financial crisis at the end of WW#1. These firearms were intented for export but a good many survived only to find their way into the Nazi war machine and were used during the Nazi period as evident by the beautifull holster that she is matched up with.

The other fellows have already explained the police issue numbering of the magazines and because yours is both military and police proofed leads me to beleive that she started out for export, was snapped up by the police and ended her history in germany in the military as evident by the military holster dated 1937.

Indeed a very good example of a well utilized piece of weaponary that has undoubtly survived the test of time.

Never caught it at first but it would seem that your barrel has been restamped a long time ago as the stamps are struck hard and deep.
 

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Hi Jim,

You are correct...I only looked at the enlarged photo of the Simspon magazine and missed the smaller photo showing the stamped serial numberes were the same. I would not want to separate a magazine from its gun...thanks for pointing out my blunder...

BTW...when did Simpson start using aluminum magazine bottoms...in which year ?
 

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Hi all,
* Pete: From Jan Still, Weimar Luger, Pg. 184, "During the Weimar Era two types of magazines were issued with military and police Lugers. Both types were of sheet metal crimped construction. Initially wood based magazines, both of new manufacture and Imperial issue, were used. However, aluminum based magazines were introduced by the Army and, probably the Police, in 1925. However, wood base magazines continued to be used until at least 1929."

* All: Trust you noticed the barrel's Simson "ghost" eagle proof and the Crown/G repair acceptance stamp. According to Costanzo, WOLI, Pg. 195, Items 128/128A, both Mauser and Simson used this Crown/G repair acceptance mark circa 1929-1932. Per Sam, Mauser used a 4 pip crown and Simson used a 5 pip crown.

* Jan has a picture of this exact barrel sequence in Weimar Luger on pg. 138 on an Alpha DWM S/N 5749q which is Police unit grip strap marked to S.D.III.43 (Schutzpolizei Duesseldorf, 3rd Centuria, pistol #43).

* My Alpha DWM Police example is S/N 3039q which is unit grip strap marked to S.Ar.I.837 (Schutzpolizei Arnsberg, 1st Centuria, pistol #837). I believe mine has the 5 pip Crown/G barrel mark of Simson. Came with a matching '34 Schambach Police *L accepted PT.08 w/ the gun S/N 3039 marked on the upper right rear corner of the holster. As a sidebar, I have an early S/42-1936 S/N 8009f with the Mauser 4 pip crown located in the takedown lever well. I think this was a Mauser repair of the last of the DWM/BKIW no-humped frames shipped from Berlin. Used on Hitler's Pre-War, Army contract acceleration to get the masses working again.

* Houston: Haenel Schmeisser mag with the "star script H" and "Haenel in an arrow" logo of this design/manufacturing company.

* Houston: Looks like we have your posted example bracketed. A number of commercial marked C/N DWM examples, originally made in 1927, must have been converted to 9mm for the Prussian City police by Simson in the 1929-1933 period. Do you note a grip strap marking on your 4873q above? Might one have been there once upon a time??
 

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GlockMasta

As RockinWR has pointed out in greater clarification the acceptance stamp/repair crown over G on the barrel is direct in line with my point on the heavily struck stamping of your barrel. The barrel has been either replaced or rechambered for the 9mm cartridge and the serial number restruck with a heavy hand probably at the same time the magazine got it's Simpson proof and the magazine safety was altered.

Pete Did not take your post as a blunder but more of an imformative post to let Glockmasta know that he has a very desirable magazine. This is a good thing to point out to the members when they enquire about their lugers.
 

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Bob
Thanks for your excellent-detailed well researched post.

"* All: Trust you noticed the barrel's Simson "ghost" eagle proof and the Crown/G repair acceptance stamp. According to Costanzo, WOLI, Pg. 195, Items 128/128A, both Mauser and Simson used this Crown/G repair acceptance mark circa 1929-1932. Per Sam, Mauser used a 4 pip crown and Simson used a 5 pip crown."

I have a comment on Costanzo's designation of a 4 pip crown to signify Mauser repair and a 5 pip crown to signify Simson repair.

I would suggest that the pips on the crown discussed above (Costanzo, page 195 #128.128A) do not establish a separate repair proof used by Mauser (4 pips) and Simson (5 pips) from 1929-1932. Instead the pips are the simple result of a broken die or die manufacturing variances. Two Lugers bearing the C/G are shown in Weimar Lugers, page 136 serial number 7777q, and page 138 serial number 5749q. Both these Alphabet DWM Lugers were new manufactured in about 1927. There is no evidence of specific Mauser or Simson repair.

Costanzo’s book “World of Luger Proof Marks” is without peer and world renowned for its cataloging of Luger markings. When published in 1977 there were a number questions raised about the Costanzo’s countless designations for each slight difference in the various stamps. His designations were almost all without any attempt at documentation. In my opinion, Costanzo lost these debates in AUTOMAG.

Also, archive documentation or other have established the actual meaning of some of the stamps. A few examples:
R.G. (Page 226 # 246) Costanzo claims the reverse wording of Grenadeer Regiment. German research has established that R.G. signifies Reichs Gendarmerie.
AWM/3/12 (page 217 # 212) Costanzo claims holster code used by A. Wunderlich Militar German research has established that AWM signifies Artillery Workshop Munchen.
S.D. (Page 220 #224) Costanzo claims Nazi Sicherheitsdienst having control over all police and intelligence units. Prussian State Police orders dated 12 April 1922 establish that S.D. signifies Schutzpolizei Dusseldorf
These are but a few examples.

In my opinion, Costanzo’s book “World of Luger Proof Marks” is outstanding for establishing Luger markings. However some of the designations must be taken with a grain of salt.
Jan
 

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GlockMasta,

I was referred to your topic in a discussion thread on the Luger Forum because of the similarity of your rig with mine. I have a 1927 "q block" commercial model DWM, S/N 3299q, barreled or rebarreled for 9 mm with police unit marking (P.M.477.) that was acquired by my uncle in Europe in 1944-45. It also has the same combination of "ghost eagle" proof on the barrel and "crown/N" on the receiver. To add to the sense of "deja vu", the holster has the same manufacturer, inspector and date markings as yours.

I don't know if your signature "Houston" means you live in Houston, TX but I do and if you are here and would like to compare our Lugers, send me an email reply.
 
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