[Pete E.]

Posting this question on several discussion boards including the Luger Forum and the SwissRifle forum. Sorry to repeat myself in many places, but trying to reach as many folks as I can on this question :

" On the spine of some M1929 Swiss bern magazines (all colors of plastic, I think...) appears a scriptic "P".

In the French luger booklet titled " Le Luger - Un Pistolet de Legende (series No. 9) " on page 71, it is written that this stamping may be the trademark of a firm called "Paillard Ste Croix".

I believe this firm might have made phonographic equipment in the 1940's.

Does anyone have more information about this firm and when and why they started making luger magazines...if indeed this is true...?

Thank you in advance for your help... "

Photo Added :

And another photo showing the small Swiss cross markings sometimes seen on the right side of the magazine bottom "button"...

Download Attachment: bernmags1.jpg
179.74 KB

 

[Vlim]

Pete,

The P stamp looks like a Swiss stamp used to mark a shooting test with an overpressure round. This mark was in use on the Swiss parabellum from 1906 onwards and is reportedly still in use.

Why they'd strike it on a magazine? Perhaps to signify that the magazine was used to fire the round....

Here's the info as published in Wirnsberger 'Beschusszeichen'.

Download Attachment: Pstamp.jpg
42.06KB

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Pete, Vlim,

The BP (inversed B joined to P) is the proofmark on rifles and pistols. It is indeed sort of a 'nitro' - high pressure proof. You will find it on younger Schmidt Rubin's, the K31, even the Sturmgewehr 1957, and almost all Parabellums.
TMHO, this has nothing to do with the 'P' on the mag's. First I presumed that this 'P' was marked upon the mag's when the corresponding pistol got its 'P' (with of without the year of release) stamped on the trigger guard on on the left side of the receiver.
Actually I do believe this is not the case, as I got some Swiss Parabellums with a 'P' marked magazine, in a non - marked pistol.

So I understand the question of Pete. I will see if my Swiss friends could give a hint to it. In that case, I will come back to both of you.

 

[Pete E.]

Hi Gerben,

The Berner-Probe marking is not the same shape as the "scriptic" P as found on some (not all) M1929 Bern magazines.

When I am home this weekend, I can send you a high-resolution jpeg to show the "P" in better detail.

Also...the shape of the "P" on my brown M1929 magazine is different than on my red maginzes. The little Swiss cross on the brown plastic is also different that the crosses on my red plastic magazines...so I speculate that if the company making these magazines is indeed Paillard Ste. Croix, they made them over several years and the style of these stampings changed with time...

 

[Vlim]

Pete,

A fact that might be interesting is that when the Bern-tooling was transferred to Mauser for the rebirth of the Parabellum the tooling for magazine production was not included. I remember reading that 'the magazine tooling was still being used'.

Mauser-Parabellum magazine production from 1970 onwards was done by a Dutch company. Complete magazines were created first, only metal tubes later.

This might be useful:

Paillard AG; St. Croix (CH)

Abbreviation: paillard

Summary: Paillard AG; St. Croix:
1814 Founded, from 1895 onwards Paillard & Cie, ca. 1920 AG.
From 1931 NF-TR-Apparate,
From 1932 to 1953/54 also Radios.
Probably one of the largest Swiss manufacturers (apart from Philips),
Products sold through Blattner & Co in Basel,
in 1942 under working under Heimbrod, Stamm & Co.

As Paillard produced cameras, radios and music boxes they certainly had the know how to produce plastic moldings and magazine tubes.

Their base of operations was st. Croix, Switzerland so that makes sense too.

 

[Pete E.]

Gerben,

Thanks for the great follow-up info. on the Paillard firm...!

 

[Vlim]

Pete,

Also located the contact-info of an author who did a book on Paillard's company history. Sent him some questions, including the magazine base marking.

 

[Pete E.]

Thanks, again, Gerben...

Will look forward to what you might hear from this author.

Maybe he can confirm (or not...) the scriptic "P" is a Paillard company logo/trademark...that might appear on some of their other products...???

 

[Vlim]

Pete,

I hope he can (and will).

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Pete,

Coming back on the 'Paillard' files:
My father had a substantial collection of bakelite records, destined to be played on old grammophones having a 78 turns per minute speed.
Between the well known record brands of the early fifties such as Decca and His Master's Voice, I have seen also Paillard. These records had a dark blue label with a silverlike print of the brand Paillard, the first character (Capital 'P') had exactly the same shape as we find on the spine of the Swiss Luger magazines.

 

[Pete E.]

Joop,

Something I added to my Swiss stuff recently...

From an earlier posting :

" The Swiss firm, Paillard Ste Croix, known to make Luger magazines for the M1929 Swiss Bern Luger and stamping the metal tube of the magazine with their unique scriptic "P" seemingly made other metal items.

Here is a photo of a metal Swiss bayonet scabbard with the same scriptic "P" stamped on the metal of the scabbard. "

(It makes a great letter-opener... )

 

[Pete E.]

To dig-up an older thread and to add another author's opinion into the mix...

In the new volumes by authors Goertz/Sturgess...it is noted on page 1443 of Volume 3 that these M1929 marked Swiss magazines were made by the firm of Rudolf Pfanninger of Stafa.

 

[Joop van de Kant]

Pete,

Mr. Sturgess has been informed by Vlim that this one of the few errors in his book. We are fairly sure that the fully authorized copy, due to arrive soon on the market, will have the name Paillard as producer for the Swiss M1929 magazines.

 

[Pete E.]

Thanks for the update, Joop.

Do you have photos of the "P" on other products...?

Usually I see this style of logo on products of the firm of Paillard Ste Croix :
.
.
.