Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In many of these discussions of "value" there is little mention of a matching magazine. Approximately how much would the value of a collector quality Luger be increased by having a matching magazine??

Thanks in advance for your input.

Bruce
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,194 Posts
Hi Guys, My experince is that a matching mag can add $200 to $300 + to the value of a nice Luger. I am basing this on my own buys. Most dealers who know something about Lugers will usually follow this rule.
The value would increase substantually with the rarity of the pistol.

Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,497 Posts
It should be remembered that magazine serial# fakery has been a thriving activity for 50 years, and it can fairly be suspected that the larger percentage of matching magazines are forgeries. The first thing that one should think when one sees a matching mag is that it is fake, and then carefully scrutinize the item to be convinced otherwise. This is more than doubly likely with two matching mags.

That being said, it is more likely that matching Police magazines are legitimate than military mags, due to the manner of their use.

--Dwight
 

·
Gold Bullet Member 2012
Joined
·
6,198 Posts
Bruce...In my little part of the world I think the upcharge tends to be a little higher for 1 or 2 matching mags. The Blue Book generally suggests a 50% add for 1 matching and 100% add for both matching. I don't know that it is quite that high but I guess the nicer the gun the closer it tends to get.
 

·
Moderator / Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
11,331 Posts
I have to agree with Dwight. It is very important to authenticate the originality of these matching mags. A matching magazine is rare enough but two? This should be looked at with extreme suspicion especially when payinfg a substantial premium. Why pay $300.00 extra when you could stamp your own numbers for free? They did.
Look for grinding on the round bottom. Scratch marks and a flattening of the bottom round where the old number may have been removed.
Like Dwight says, convince yourself this is right and true. Be a sceptic. My heart beats fast and sweat pops out all over when I am offered a good Luger. All reason goes out the window but you must come back to center yourself and conserve your money for another purchase. Take your time and do your homework...If it looks the least bit wrong it probably is. Jerry Burney
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
6,233 Posts
Dwight is absolutely correct in his thoughts on police lugers with matched mags. Many police guns were simply "turned-in" at the end of the war. If it's not a police luger the first assumption should be that matched mags are fakes unless it is truly coming from the hands of the vet's widow.

There are machinists or tool and die makers out there who will custom make dies to a specific pistol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
402 Posts
Even if it is a police Luger, do not taker for granted that a matching mag or two are liget...please seek the help of other if you are not sure. In this day of digital cameras and the internet, help is just a click away.....a few weeks ago some very good help on LF save me from buying an incorrect K date, something out of my area os collecting, but was interested in.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the well warrented pessimism. Could one assume that the higher the quality (99% +/-) of the Luger, the more likely a matching magazine would be correct? If the gun wasn't used/abused it seems likely to innocent me that the correct magazine would be retained?

Thanks again, Bruce
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
6,233 Posts
Pay attention now. If the Luger is a police model with one or two matched mags, there is a good chance that the "rig" is correct and original. If it is an army/combat issue pistol with matching magazine or magazines, assume that the mags are faked unless you are buying it from some little old lady for half of what it's worth. Face it, unless the original custodian of the Luger was a REMF chances are the original mags are long gone. To put it another way, if someone shot at the original owner or that owner ever shot at someone else, it aint likely to have matched mags

As far as the assumption that the higher the quality of the pistol would lend credence to the original mag...the higher the quality of the pistol, the more alarms that should be sounded. The scum bags who are counterfeiting or altering Lugers put whole packages together. Beware.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,547 Posts
George who is not always politcally correct is usually mostly right!

As he said, much better a police gun, which was in the city till the end for many departments, have a better chance of retaining a matching mag, opposite of an army one.

Also, again as he said, if I come across a less than perfect example, I am more inclined to believe it is real than a perfect one...

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
704 Posts
I have been supremely fortunate in acquiring two krieghoffs, each with two matching magazines. One was a bring-back that has been in a bank vault since 1945 and the other was purchased from Bob Simpson...he acquired it at the recent Rock Island auction and discovered that he had a second matching mag for it in his extensive magazine collection.

Both guns are 99.8% condition; one was a Luftwaffe issue, the other a P-code private purchase.

I believe the addition of the second matching mag adds about 10%, or in the case of these Kriegs, about $1K to their value, but it is really academic as I do not plan to sell them anytime soon.

Tom A.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,194 Posts
Another example would be in "The P.08 Luger Pistol" book. There are photos of German Naval Artillery troops being trained in the use of Lugers. The pistols are lined up on a table. The magazines have been removed for loading. And are also on the table. It's really not practicle to think that they are going to keep track of which mag matches which pistol,in the process of cleaning and storing them afterward. Unless they had very persnickity armorers. In my opinion.

Ron
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,547 Posts
Ron, in our army when we went to the range and loaded up our mags and shot, it didn't matter what mag went with what gun. So although the germans would be aware their gun was serial numbered, there is a chance they'd get mixed up. And then later when our GIs picked the guns up, or even more so, when guns went through dealers (they literally had hundreds of guns they were importing/exporting), just any mag was all they wanted with the gun.

ed
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
I just checked it up. To all Lugers I collected I have only 4,2% of matching mag's. I mean REAL matching, not the 'grounded up and stamped to match' ones. And they are all police. 'All' is a word somewhat oversized for this result. I have here 268 mag's, non matching the Lugers they now stay in, or simply extra mag's I found. If I scrap the ones which have been fuzzled with, I have 241 clean and good looking orphans.

A few days ago I asked TOMA if he had a list of the mag's he has in stock. All of us go to shows and fairs and examine every magazine, hoping to find one of the lost sons. But Tom told me that he hasn't, and that it is anyway 'a chance of one in a million' to find one...

Since then I calculed a bit around. Every Luger started its life with two matching mag's, with a '+' on the second one. Some police Lugers even with three. According to Jan Still's 'Imperial Lugers' DWM and Erfurt produced from 1910 to 1918 some 1.262.000 Lugers, so also about 2,5 million mag's with a wooden base.

If we take the total non - suffix numbered, 135.000 x 2 = 270.000 were made by DWM, 78.000 xx 2 = 156.000 by Erfurt, 426.000 in total.
(Yes, I know that the Crown-proofs of DWM and Erfurt are different).
With every suffix these quantities decline due to lower production during the first years. But the chance that you could find one is not 1 to the million, but approx. 1 to the 79.000. That is still not a tempting score, but 13 times better as stated before...

I hope to have more time for this passion in very few years. May be I will start a simple data base, accessable for every forum member.
'Only' 9999 main cells, with up to 22 suffixes. We then give each member a three letter code, like the German Army did in WWII. If you have one, you put your code in the right cell. If you search for one, you can see if it is available.

OK, I know that the price must be attractive for seller and buyer.
But it is a very tempting idea...
What do you think about it?
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,547 Posts
Joop, I think it is a great idea, to be honest, I would guess that an "owner" would have to input info, unless there was a website that was java enabled, with each member having their own password / code to allow them to input info.

I have only a small handful of extra mags (literally), and I too keep a list and look at shows and on-line, but have not found my lucky ones. I would be glad to send you my list of extras and ones I need?

Ed
 

·
Gold Bullet Member
Joined
·
1,819 Posts
Ed,
Well, it would need quite a bit of organizing, and indeed it would not fit into the structurated architecture of this forum. But it is certainly possible to make a link from here to a special LugMagExchange - site.
I will think it over and who knows, when time comes and I can do the things I really like to do...

Thanks for your offer to start a one to one exchange. From my side, this will have to wait two months, but after that - gratefully accepted! I am sending you a PM explaining the why of this delay.
Best regards,
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,547 Posts
Joop, received it, and understand.

Don Hallock has a luger exchange listing now, but it is a paper listing, and I would love to see a interactive listing.

ed
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Talking about the originality of matching magazines, suppose I were to buy a Luger from one of the better known, large dealers such as FGS, Simpson or Shattuck and they provided a signed statement that the gun was 100% original with a matching magazine, would you consider that sufficient guarantee that, in fact, the magazine is properly matching? (I don't think I ever wrote a sentance? that long before.) It seems to me that they would not risk their reputations to sell a bogus magazine.

Does this make any sense to anyone?

Bruce
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,547 Posts
Yes, and no offense to the big dealers, but they will generally look it over, say it is all matching and sell it.

Nothing rotten on their part, but they aren't dealing with one gun, but hundreds every month or so, so they will not look at it as close as you will. However, insist on the normal 3-day look at it, then send it back. Of course you can lose shipping both ways, but I'd raise hell if they said matching and it wasn't.

Ed
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top