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Military Proofed Banner Mauser

8K views 11 replies 7 participants last post by  mrerick 
#1 · (Edited)
Hi, I recently acquired this military proofed E/135 9mm Mauser luger, with all matching numbers and a military proofed FXO magazine without any serial number.

It has a forward toggle that is marked with a Mauser Banner.

From the inspection/sub-contractor mark the toggle was probably manufactured between 1939 and 1941.

The frame is a "42" two digit date, with serial number series "715g" with manufacture date likely around April, 1942.

Is it likely that a military proofed Mauser would be found with a Banner toggle instead of a "byf"? Under what circumstances could this happen? Could a foreign contract account for this?

Marc
 
#2 ·
Marc, this is apparently an unusual luger. It most closely resembles the Mauser banner commercial pictured on page 246 of Still's Third Reich Lugers. However, these commercial Mauser banners carried much later suffixes, such as "x" and usually "y". This leaves your "g" suffixed banner as a sort of mystery. I suppose critics would simply say that the front toggle is just a replacement and not factory original. Could you post photographs?
 
#3 ·
Marc,

Like drbuster suggested, we might find out more about the 'why' of your Luger pistol having a banner instead of a byf marking on the toggle, when we could see a few detailed pictures.
Let me say that there are a few more military accepted Luger pistols that got a banner marked toggle. In most of the cases you will find also a commercial proof marking on the left receiver, next to the serial number, Crown/U or Eagle/N.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Pictures - Military proofed Banner 42 date Mauser

It took some time to get the pictures, apologies for the delay...

Here are a set of views:





This mark is under the Banner toggle:



"g" serial suffix:













One additional question... Does this look re-blued? It was described as a re-blue by the person I bought it from...

Thanks again for your help!



In reviewing this post, I realize that I hadn't posted a picture of the front of the receiver requested by George. This photo shows the receiver serial number, and also the E/N proof on the breech block.




Marc
 
#6 ·
Some additional information... I closely inspected the luger again today, and found that the "RW" mark (which is underneath the forward Banner toggle) is also present on the rear toggle near the hinge, as well as the rear of the slide frame, on the bottom left rail almost directly below the rear toggle pin.

Earlier, I've heard that the "RW" mark could refer to a parts supplier, but that it isn't known which one. Since it's on the frame as well as other parts, I would think it's unlikely that it's a subcontractor. Thoughts?

There is no caliber marking beneath the serial number on the barrel, and just behind the witness mark on the frame the letters "HV" with an intersecting "Y" are stamped.
 
#9 · (Edited)
The only thing in front of the side plate on the left is the serial number (without suffix letter "g").

There are no marks of any kind on the front sight base or the sight itself.

Is it possible that the small "WR" symbol is actually a "MR" symbol? If so, could it relate to French Manurhin manufacture of Lugers with parts found at the Oberndorf Mauser factory?

Marc
 
#11 ·
Marc,

Thank you for taking pictures, and letting us share them.
Let us start with the easy thing: The intertwined W and R stands for Werks Revision meaning: factory control. This stamp was used from mid-1936 to the end of the Luger pistol production in 1942. It replaced most (not all) of the various letters, signs and characters that were stamped by workers mostly inside the pistol on the frame, receiver, and toggle train. Mauser's system of quality control consisted of the extended use of factory gauges. Every part, even the axles and the small springs, were checked on a precise measurement. In Oberndorf there was a hall with sixty large tables where all parts were checked by sixty people - mostly women.
The larger parts like the frame and the receiver, demanded 150+ different toolings before they were ready for the pistol assembly line. If one of these toolings would not have been 100% succesful, the frame would be worthless at the end. Therefore the measurements were checked everytime when some 30 toolings had passed. The worker who checked this had a personal stamp. An -A-, a -b-, a -+-, a -2-, these were symbols which could be linked later to the person who was responsible for that specific quality check.
Mauser replaced this old DWM sytem in 1936 for the quality checks on the receiver and the toggle train. The R+W stamp was used, while the number of at random symbols went down sharply. The R+W stamps are found under the front and rear toggle link, and mostly also under the receiver on the left rail. The quality check procedure of the frame did not change.

Now about your 42 banner serial number xxxxg.
It is a Luger pistol that was inspected and accepted by the German Army inspector 135 (code for Major Rosenhagen). The 42 date on the chamber, and the suffix -g- of the serial number, indicate a production in the month of May 1942.
At that time, Mauser was using obsolete replacement parts that were mixed into the production of the military pistols. We see chamber - toggle combinations like: 1940-byf, 42-42, 41-S/42, and, indeed also some banners. It seems that the Army Waffenamt in Berlin had no objections to Mauser's cleaning up party. An estimated total of some 4,500 "out-of-sequence"- pistols are found between 41-byf suffix -x-, and 42-byf suffix -k-.

So this Luger pistol has not been changed later - it came like this from Mauser's production line. It is a pity, however, that it has been reblued.
There are a few more military banners reported in the -g- block.
I would like to have the serial number of your pistol -for my database and for the statistics of the book I am now finishing.

I hope this helps.
 
#12 · (Edited)
Joop, thank you very much for the details of this gun. It's wonderful and remarkable that you have developed this depth of research.

The gun's serial number is 715g so it's early in the block. Please list it in your research.

I can provide high resolution pictures if you would like them. I'll PM you with my email.

Thanks again for your insights...


Marc
 
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