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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all,

I'm in search of a model 1900 luger with a 3 digit serial number. Some of these commercial lugers have the last 2 digits stamped on the right side of the locking bolt. If the numbers are 32 or 34 ...
history could be in the making....

Also, has anyone ever seen a picture of a model 1900 luger pistol case for a matched pair ?
Glad to be here,
Mark
 

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Mark, welcome to the forum!

Do you want me to move this to the "Trader Section"?

Many lugers have the last two digits on the locking bolt, so I am unsure what you are looking for? And the significance of 32 or 34 must be?

ed
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hello Ed,

Many lugers do have a 2 digit number stamped on the right side locking bolt but not too many 1900 lugers with the digits 32 or 34 exist. The significance is historical.

I'm looking for a Model 1900...not 1901... not 1906...
Without going into the historical details and significance of this request...most importantly, I'm looking for a matched set that's been separated from way back in 1932.
Would the "Trader Section" have more viewers ?
Thank You,
Mark


quote:Originally posted by Weimar_Police

Mark, welcome to the forum!

Do you want me to move this to the "Trader Section"?

Many lugers have the last two digits on the locking bolt, so I am unsure what you are looking for? And the significance of 32 or 34 must be?

ed
 

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I know that many guns have a 2 digit, in fact for military models it is on every one.
Sorry, your refernces to historical don't mean anything to me. If you mean what happened in the 1930's then yes, I understand, but would have nothing to do with 1900 lugers.

The forum is set up as each section for knowledge, and if it is simply a request for a gun, then the trader section is the logical place for it.

Ed
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thank You. I'll follow your lead with a bran new post.
Mark

quote:Originally posted by Weimar_Police

I know that many guns have a 2 digit, in fact for military models it is on every one.
Sorry, your refernces to historical don't mean anything to me. If you mean what happened in the 1930's then yes, I understand, but would have nothing to do with 1900 lugers.

The forum is set up as each section for knowledge, and if it is simply a request for a gun, then the trader section is the logical place for it.

Ed
 

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oh, and good luck in your quest, I have for whatever reason picked up several guns with a last 2 of #39, so now I have looked for them, so kind of understand the numbering like you suggest.


ed
 

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Mark33,

Model 1900 Lugers were stamped on the round takedown end until somewhere between #7094 and #7108. Indications are that there may be a range centered around #4000--#5000 which were stamped on the bottom edge.

--Dwight
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
George Eastman (Kodak) took his own life with a model 1900 Luger on March 14th 1932, he was 77 years old. The suicide scene investigators wrapped up their report the same afternoon. Pictures of the gun and the crime scene evidence stored away....never to be questioned for many decades later.
The luger must have been sold at a late 1940's police auction yet no recording of its whereabouts surfaced until 1952 when Alfred H. recorded it on his pistol permit, signed by Sheriff Albert Skinner.
Alfred H. had a brother in the police force Carl H. who happens to be a luger collector. Unlike Skinner who collected Colt arms.
Certainly, after WW2 most soldiers brought a luger souvenir home.
Carl H. didn't need to record any of his pistols because back in the early days police officers didn't need a pistol permit.

Anyway, the story has many twists turns and mysteries.
Most shockingly, all of Eastmans' crime scene evidence disappeared from the Rochester police Department.
The gun supposedly disappeared until the GEH Museum featured an article in the D&C (Rochester NY newspaper) about Eastman and the missing gun on Febuary 27,2000.
Knowing we had a different luger in our antique gun collection we set out and did our own investigation.

Sure enough.
Alfred H. walked into our store front sporting goods shop in July, 1972 and sold George Eastmans' suicide weapon, never telling us any of its true history, only that, it was purchased at auction and it once belonging to George Eastmans' gun collection. Like many of our collectables the luger was buried and never saw the light of day for the next 28 years until that Feb 2000 article.
According to an investigator friend of mine, that same July day, Alfred H. went downtown to delete a luger and a mouser off of his permit so as he can travel over state lines on his way to retirement in Florida.

Let's go back to 1932.
Days after Eastmans' death, police found a second luger in his bedroom behind the bookcase presumably its matching brother.

We theorize, back in 1900 George Eastman was in Europe promoting his bran new Brownie Camera...the same time...George Luger was manufacturing his bran new masterpiece the 1900 Luger.
Eastman received a matched set of Lugers' and George Luger received a Brownie Camera.
Exchaning turn of the century gifts sounds completely normal for 2 industrial giants but any such transaction was never recorded.
Much of Eastmans life was never recorded for that matter.
On account of the supposed suicide luger markings, Ralph Shattuck http://www.worldoflugers.com
knows, without a doubt, Eastman carried THE luger out of Germany in the year 1900.

Sorry for such a long message but the story is getting more and more interesting as time goes on.
Feb 20th 2005, The Democrat & Chronicle newspaper featured a huge Sunday front page article with our luger on the front page and a huge picture of me holding the gun on the 12th page.
The headlines on the front page :
"IS THIS LUGER REALLY WORTH $2 MILLION ?"

In all reality it's worth as much as someone wants to pay but the story has more potential...especially when considering murder disguised as suicide.....




quote:Originally posted by Weimar_Police

oh, and good luck in your quest, I have for whatever reason picked up several guns with a last 2 of #39, so now I have looked for them, so kind of understand the numbering like you suggest.


ed
 

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Mark33

The story is interesting but generally it is the luger that is for sale and not the story.

Two million for a 1900 luger is a great marketing ploy, you will have the counterfeiters hard at work if they think that some poor devil will shell out that amount of cash.

I believe this forum is about realistic values and history concerning the quest for knowledge concerning the luger, not murder mysteries.

Do not be insulted it is just my take on your post.
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Oh, but it is the story.
By the way, poor devils don't have $2 million to spend....only rich collectors have $2 million to spend on one of a kind items.
Who said the luger's for sale ?
I didn't say it. The newspaper created headlines from an insurance appraisal.
We don't want the gun anymore but that dosen't mean it's for sale.


quote:Originally posted by lugerlou

Mark33

The story is interesting but generally it is the luger that is for sale and not the story.

Two million for a 1900 luger is a great marketing ploy, you will have the counterfeiters hard at work if they think that some poor devil will shell out that amount of cash.

I believe this forum is about realistic values and history concerning the quest for knowledge concerning the luger, not murder mysteries.

Do not be insulted it is just my take on your post.
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
It's for sale when I feel like selling it. After the book maybe but there is a time and a place for everything.
What kind of gibberish is that ?

quote:Originally posted by wterrell

quote:We don't want the gun anymore but that dosen't mean it's for sale.
What kind of gibberish is that?
 

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Here is the link to a newspaper article. The photo of the luger can be saved/downlaoded (but the article says it is just another M1900 photo and not the Eastman luger photo from the 190's) :

http://www.democratandchronicle.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050220/NEWS01/502200338

Here is an interesting except from that newspaper article :

" Two gun collectors in Irondequoit, Anthony Guarino and his son, Mark, say they may have the answer. A Luger sold to the Guarinos' company in 1972 for less than $500 bears a striking resemblance to police photos of the Luger used by Eastman, though some key identifying evidence is missing. "

This gun was discussed on the Luger Forum some months back...

I am sure the $ 2M assessment partly came from a dealer hoping to hande this piece on a consignment sales basis...

If I recall from the discussion on the Luger Forum, many collectors there did not see Eastman as an historically important-enough figure to command such a price for a luger that may or may not have been his...The concept of folks spending "stupid money" also came up in those discussions...

Seems like the original posting looking for a gun numbered to either side of the "Eastman" luger would just serve to command a price of $ 5M for the pair...for that price, the two lugers should at least have "GE" added to the chamber...(insert tongue-in-cheek emoticon, here...).

Maybe Mark needs to prove the provenance of this luger to the Eastman family before he get pre-occupied trying to find its mate, first. Then the guy that owns the luger on either side of Mark's gun can see if he can get Mark to pay $ 2M for that one so Mark can "assemble" the pair for sale, in a presentation case, of course...to the Museum...
 

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This whole thing is beginning to sound like an arguement on an elementary school playground. Mark if you have a question? Ask it! And I'm sure someone would be willing to try to answer it.
So far, it sounds like you are trying to find a 1900 luger with the parts that you need to alter the serial number on a luger that you have in your possession. If so, that is a violation of federal law. And it appears that you are doing so to swindle someone out of a lot of money. Which is a crime. In fact, the amount of money would make it a major felony. You may want to know that two well known high dollar collector/dealers are under federal investigation for fraudulant activities concerning faking firearms. This type of crime is under the perview of the BATF. Making it a federal crime. Translation: 2/3s time mandatory sentencing. If they get 60 years, they will serve 40 years before they even consider parole.

And I would also add that if you use the US Mail in any part of this. Then the Postal Inspection Service gets you when BATF is done.
I can tell you from experience, they are not the guys you would like to deal with.
 

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One more note regarding Mark and his Dad's gun # 133...

The Eastman luger photos taken by the police in 1932 only confirmed the "33" on the right side of the take-down lever...The Eastman luger could (and I say could...) be "133"...but could easily be number 33, 233, 333, 433, 533, 633, 733, 833, 933....all in the correct 1900-1902 time frame as Eastman's trip to Germany...

However, the Eastman trip to Germany in the early 1900 would need to be documented...other wise this run of lugers with "33" as their last two numbers runs as high as the # 7x33...when the 2-digits on the right side of ther TD lever moved to the left side...

The provenance of this second luger would also need to be proven just as "133" needs its provenance proven. If "133" turns out to be THE Eastman luger, then which one is its mate...luger "132" or "134"...? Provenance, provenance, provenance...

Otherwise...it just becomes a spurious "story" by some dealer hoping to boost the selling price of a nice luger...
 

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Hi Mark,

Correct me if I'm wrong:
-You have the Eastman 1900 model with a '33' end-digit in your possession.
-You are trying to locate the other 1900 model that was found at the Eastman residence.

This is surely going to be a longshot and with the amounts involved the chance that someone will knock off a 'matching 1900' and will try to talk you out of your cash will be very, very great. Please be cautious.

Pete is absolutely correct. In this case, documentation is everything.
 

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Hi Gerben,

It is not yet a fact that Mark and his Dad own THE Eastman luger...they just were lucky enough to buy a commerical DWM M1900, serial # 133 for only $ 500 back in the 1970's...it may be worth $ 6K to $ 10K now depending on condition...if it cannot be proven to be the luger linked to the suicide death of Geo. Eastman...

Simpson's just sold a very nice early M1900, 3-digit luger for a bit under $ 10K USD :

http://www.simpsonltd.com/LugerRoom/DWM/D-02/D-02.htm
 
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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Parts ? LOL
Eastmans' gun needs no parts. It's mint and complete. We disassembled the luger to find several parts with it's 2 digit stamp.

I never participate in forums like this but I thought maybe there could be someone in the luger community with sound advice in helping with the search of the other gun.

Nay sayers sound jealous and angry maybe because something of historical value dosen't exist in their collection. I don't know.
I'm not sure why luger people on this forum find it hard to believe the validity of such an item.
Get over your fears my fellow luger nay sayers, it's not the end of the world.
Besides, the Eastman luger story, in the long run, can only help raise the cost of vintage pieces of similar types and styles.

I am also looking for a picture of an original pistol case made specifically for 2 - 1900 lugers.
Would anyone know where to look ?
Does anyone know a better way to find it's matched brother ?

To ALL !
I understand obvious suspicions that can surround stories like this particular one but don't waste your energy....


quote:Originally posted by Ron Smith

This whole thing is beginning to sound like an arguement on an elementary school playground. Mark if you have a question? Ask it! And I'm sure someone would be willing to try to answer it.
So far, it sounds like you are trying to find a 1900 luger with the parts that you need to alter the serial number on a luger that you have in your possession. If so, that is a violation of federal law. And it appears that you are doing so to swindle someone out of a lot of money. Which is a crime. In fact, the amount of money would make it a major felony. You may want to know that two well known high dollar collector/dealers are under federal investigation for fraudulant activities concerning faking firearms. This type of crime is under the perview of the BATF. Making it a federal crime. Translation: 2/3s time mandatory sentencing. If they get 60 years, they will serve 40 years before they even consider parole.

And I would also add that if you use the US Mail in any part of this. Then the Postal Inspection Service gets you when BATF is done.
I can tell you from experience, they are not the guys you would like to deal with.
 

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quote:Originally posted by Mark33

Hello all,

I'm in search of a model 1900 luger with a 3 digit serial number. Some of these commercial lugers have the last 2 digits stamped on the right side of the locking bolt. If the numbers are 32 or 34 ...
history could be in the making....


Mark
Well, it sure appears that you are looking for a locking bolt with the numbers 32 or 34 to me!!!

Your insulting and arrogant manner does'nt promote the desire to assist you in your search. I would suggest another forum, where everyone is not so prone to envy and hero worship.

You have a wonderful day now.....
 

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Hi Mark,

Before this discussion deteriorates more, I thought I would ask :

1. Are you willing to provide your provenance/documentation that proves your pistol # 133 is indeed the Eastman luger (1 of 2 pistols that is) ?

2. How would you document that either luger # 132 or # 134 is the mate to the Eastman suicide luger. There should be some provenance...as only 1 of these 2 lugers could only be the mate of # 133 (if # 133 is documented).

3. Granted you locate a presentation case (to hold a pair of M1900 DWM commerical lugers) that is authentic...how would you document that this case was the case Eastman owned ?

Please note there are very skilled craftsman that can produce cases to look like period-correct specimens...and some of the lesss ethical folks are even aging such cases...

I do not think the Members are nay-sayers...we just want to accept things about historical pieces with a little more than just the verbal assurances of the present owner and a possible dealer that might want to benefit in its sale that # 133, indeed, is the Eastman suicide luger.
 
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