[onaway]

Hello all,

I am a Luger newcomer and wonder if you can provide help identifying for me the meaning of the N.1804 number on the backstrap of a 1906 1st issue altered Navy luger taken in WWII as a souvenir? Serial is 7xx9a

Regards,

Keith

 

[Navy]

Hi Keith,

Welcome to the group.

The marking indicates your gun was issued to a Matrosen (sailor) assigned to the Wilhelmshaven Werft, or Dockyard/Arsenal. It was property number 1804. Other property markings encountered include D for Danzig, O for the Ostsee (East sea or Baltic sea fleet) headquartered in Kiel, as well as Gov Kiau for the Chinese detachment.

The exact sequencing of numbers within a given issuing organization remains a mystery. There has been a fair amount of research and database analysis done on this subject and the results are, to say the least, confounding.

Thanks for the data point.

Tom A

 

[Navy]

Hi Keith,

Welcome to the group.

The marking indicates your gun was issued to a Matrosen (sailor) assigned to the Wilhelmshaven Werft, or Dockyard/Arsenal. It was property number 1804. Other property markings encountered include D for Danzig, O for the Ostsee (East sea or Baltic sea fleet) headquartered in Kiel, as well as Gov Kiau for the Chinese detachment.

The exact sequencing of numbers within a given issuing organization remains a mystery. There has been a fair amount of research and database analysis done on this subject and the results are, to say the least, confounding.

Thanks for the data point.

Tom A

 

[onaway]

Thanks. This gun was originally a longer barrel, the original length, but cut down to a 4" and the tip turned down for a new front sight. Also a new toggle. The grip safety was also removed and it can be seen where this was done. Is it possible that the WWI dockyard markings were removed from the backstrap and overstamped with the nazi era N.1804? N numbers match but some of the small parts do not. The frame, barrel and most other parts match. Is it possible to have this gun re-issued in WWII w/o any nazi eagle proofs?

Thanks for any additional help.

Keith

 

[onaway]

Thanks. This gun was originally a longer barrel, the original length, but cut down to a 4" and the tip turned down for a new front sight. Also a new toggle. The grip safety was also removed and it can be seen where this was done. Is it possible that the WWI dockyard markings were removed from the backstrap and overstamped with the nazi era N.1804? N numbers match but some of the small parts do not. The frame, barrel and most other parts match. Is it possible to have this gun re-issued in WWII w/o any nazi eagle proofs?

Thanks for any additional help.

Keith

 

[garfield]

In all probability, your pistol was reworked during the Weimar period, and routed to the Reichsmarine where it remained in service after the Nazis took control.

Your pistol could have originally been etched with an Imperial property mark. If it had been, the mark was obviously removed at the time of the rework. However, not all Imperial Navy Lugers were property marked. The N(Nordsee) and O (Ostsee) marine station property markings are of either Weimar or early Nazi origin, consequently, the property mark on your pistol could have been added during either period. As the pistol was reworked during the Weimar period you would not find Nazi military acceptance or proof markings on it.

 

[garfield]

In all probability, your pistol was reworked during the Weimar period, and routed to the Reichsmarine where it remained in service after the Nazis took control.

Your pistol could have originally been etched with an Imperial property mark. If it had been, the mark was obviously removed at the time of the rework. However, not all Imperial Navy Lugers were property marked. The N(Nordsee) and O (Ostsee) marine station property markings are of either Weimar or early Nazi origin, consequently, the property mark on your pistol could have been added during either period. As the pistol was reworked during the Weimar period you would not find Nazi military acceptance or proof markings on it.

 

[Jan C Still]

Keith
As Garfield stated above “ In all probability, your pistol was reworked during the Weimar period, and routed to the Reichsmarine where it remained in service after the Nazis took control. “

The N.1804 property mark signifies Marinestation der Nordsee (North Sea) headquartered in Wilhelmshaven. As TomA stated "It was property number 1804." During the Imperial Era, Navy Lugers issued from this site were stamped W.W..xx . The W.W. signified Werf zu Wilhelmshaven (Dockyard at Wilhelmshaven). Lugers issued from this Marinestation or Dockyard were issued to a variety of German Navy ships and personnel during the Imperial/Weimar/Nazi era.

In my opinion, your N 1804 stamp was applied during the Nazi Era. Tables listing property stamps and Luger Models are on page 204 of Weimar Lugers and page 145 of Axis Pistols. These indicate that your property marking, N1804, was applied sometime during 1935 -1937.

N1785, N1819, and N1866 are also reworked 1906 or 1908 Navies. N1785 is shown on page 223 of Weimar Lugers and has its barrel chopped to 4 inches, the front sight reattached, and its grip safety removed. It retains its Imperial Navy proofs and like yours does not bear the Navy Eagle. These Imperial reworks usually do not bear the Navy eagle. Your reworked 1906 Navy fits in very well with this group of other reworked Imperial Navies.
Photographs showing you Luger would be of interest.
Jan

 

[Jan C Still]

Keith
As Garfield stated above “ In all probability, your pistol was reworked during the Weimar period, and routed to the Reichsmarine where it remained in service after the Nazis took control. “

The N.1804 property mark signifies Marinestation der Nordsee (North Sea) headquartered in Wilhelmshaven. As TomA stated "It was property number 1804." During the Imperial Era, Navy Lugers issued from this site were stamped W.W..xx . The W.W. signified Werf zu Wilhelmshaven (Dockyard at Wilhelmshaven). Lugers issued from this Marinestation or Dockyard were issued to a variety of German Navy ships and personnel during the Imperial/Weimar/Nazi era.

In my opinion, your N 1804 stamp was applied during the Nazi Era. Tables listing property stamps and Luger Models are on page 204 of Weimar Lugers and page 145 of Axis Pistols. These indicate that your property marking, N1804, was applied sometime during 1935 -1937.

N1785, N1819, and N1866 are also reworked 1906 or 1908 Navies. N1785 is shown on page 223 of Weimar Lugers and has its barrel chopped to 4 inches, the front sight reattached, and its grip safety removed. It retains its Imperial Navy proofs and like yours does not bear the Navy Eagle. These Imperial reworks usually do not bear the Navy eagle. Your reworked 1906 Navy fits in very well with this group of other reworked Imperial Navies.
Photographs showing you Luger would be of interest.
Jan

 

[onaway]

Wow, you guys are awesome, I appreciate the quick responses.

Is it fair to ask what kind of value this gun has? Is $1500 too high? I know an untouched gun is likely to have more value i.e. a full length WWI barrel grip safety etc; but is there also a value in the history a gun like this presents? Or do collectors look at it as a "messed with" gun and not very valuable?

No holster and magazines may or may not be located so I cannot offer much more data there. I will try to ascertain exactly what parts are mismatched.

I will have to try to get some digital shots for everyone. I'll post them when I can.

Thanks again, I look forward to more posts.

Keith

 

[onaway]

Wow, you guys are awesome, I appreciate the quick responses.

Is it fair to ask what kind of value this gun has? Is $1500 too high? I know an untouched gun is likely to have more value i.e. a full length WWI barrel grip safety etc; but is there also a value in the history a gun like this presents? Or do collectors look at it as a "messed with" gun and not very valuable?

No holster and magazines may or may not be located so I cannot offer much more data there. I will try to ascertain exactly what parts are mismatched.

I will have to try to get some digital shots for everyone. I'll post them when I can.

Thanks again, I look forward to more posts.

Keith