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I'm not certain of the 1914 timeline, but did Erfurt's est. 23,000 LP.08's begin production before August when the war began? If so, is it fair to assume they used the same rod tip as the later DWM '14 LP.08's? As Erfurt began production of P.08's in 1910, their LP.08 rods were probably similar.
 

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Hi Patrice,
While the pinned Navy rod is a well documented variation (Sturgess), I've never handled or seen one in person. Having cleaned my share of rifled barrels over the years I can't think of any reason for producing a non-rotating cleaning rod. Perhaps an inexpensive late war expedient?
Norm
 

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Discussion Starter #26
Patrice.

I don't own one, but I have examined one. Frankly, I don't know what to think. It looks real, but I've spent over 60 years cleaning gun barrels and have quite a number of cleaning rods of all shapes and sizes. Like Norm, I see little reason for a non-rotating one other than for a smoothbore like a shotgun or musket. I don't dismiss them, but I can't help but think that they could have been an early attempt a making a reproduction navy rod by someone who lacked the equipment or ability to build one that rotated like an original. It's not a small thing to duplicate the original rod.

I'm not sure an appearance in a book, even one as well respected as Görtz & Sturgess, is sufficient to make an item "well documented".
 

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Hi all, I obtained a fixed barrel zig-zag rod from the late Tom Armstrong about 10+ years ago. He believed they were the first zig-zags, however no references were mentioned. All carefully measured dimensions agreed with factory drawings. While some well made fakes are made in the Middle East, I believe Tom would spot them given his long experience, however no one is infalible including Sturgess.
 

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The zigzags are not too hard to fake if you know the right people. One I had a friend make. It beats paying 900 bucks for one, at least for us poor boys.
 

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Patrice.

I don't own one, but I have examined one. Frankly, I don't know what to think. It looks real, but I've spent over 60 years cleaning gun barrels and have quite a number of cleaning rods of all shapes and sizes. Like Norm, I see little reason for a non-rotating one other than for a smoothbore like a shotgun or musket. I don't dismiss them, but I can't help but think that they could have been an early attempt a making a reproduction navy rod by someone who lacked the equipment or ability to build one that rotated like an original. It's not a small thing to duplicate the original rod.

I'm not sure an appearance in a book, even one as well respected as Görtz & Sturgess, is sufficient to make an item "well documented".

These cleaning rods are very authentic: I found a copy, with the holster at a veteran of the WWI, there are already forty years.

Baguettes marine imp�riale  04.JPG
 

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The zigzags are not too hard to fake if you know the right people. One I had a friend make. It beats paying 900 bucks for one, at least for us poor boys.
Harry, Your friend made an excellent rod..actually hard to tell from a real one. If he makes any more let me know...
 

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Hi Mike,
In addition to Sturgess the pinned Navy rod was described, and pictured, by Bender in 1992 and Still back in 1991.
Regards, Norm
 

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Harry, Your friend made an excellent rod..actually hard to tell from a real one. If he makes any more let me know...
It was a one time thing. I just wanted to see if it could be done tastefully.I experiment with faking the verdigris myself. If there was a market I suppose several could be made. I wouldn't want anyone passing them off as the real deal so they would need to marked someway.
 

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Harry's other friend, Kenny Kontos of Revshop, sells a good looking repro for $95.00.
Norm
 

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Discussion Starter #37
That's consistent with my last statement that I thought it likely the Navy returned to steel rods at some point. Are all the Artillery rods steel with a brass tip, or do some have a steel tip?

Differentiating between what I now know based on original manuals and my opinion:

Facts:
  • The original navy rods were steel with a brass tip.
  • In 1910 the navy changed to using the all brass "zig-zag" rod.

Opinion:
  • It is likely that the navy switched back to steel rods some time after the 1913 manual was published.
  • The change most likely happened with the 1914 contract for long frame P.04s without a grip safety, known to collectors as the "1908" Navy.
  • Since there are brass tipped lP.08 cleaning rods, the navy probably initially reverted to the original design before eventually dropping the brass tip.
  • I know from my Utensilienkasten research that the brass nameplates were dropped on 10 November 1915 due to metal shortages. Based on that, it's likely that the brass tip would have been dropped on the next P.04 contract, with would mean the 1916 and 1917 short frame P.04s were probably shipped with the all steel rods.
I now know that the original LP.08 rods were identical to the original brass tipped Navy rods except for being longer. Bender has a copy of the original LP.08 rod drawing, which is dated 18 September 1914 and includes the brass tip.
 
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