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Presented is one of the most misunderstood and unrecognized and unappreciated by historians/collectors world wide of the usage during the Imperial, Weimer and Nazi Governments of any pistol on the European continent, bar none !!! Its service began with the Imperial Army and ended with usage by all the services during the Third Reich. Presented here is one such example of Weimer Police usage which eventually migrated into the Nazi police inventory. Although the Ortgies pistol is found with only limited markings to the services they were incorporated into , such as the RFV, RBD, and various police states to include plant security forces, numerous misidentified holsters attest to the fact that all services used this pistol by either private purchase or service produced holsters for personal use by uniform personnel. Here is such an example.

Download Attachment: Ortgies holster front.JPG
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Download Attachment: Ortgies holster rear.JPG
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Download Attachment: Ortgies holster exposed.JPG
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Download Attachment: Ortgies holster marks.JPG
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Download Attachment: Ortgies left side.JPG
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Download Attachment: Ortgies right side.JPG
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Download Attachment: Ortgies right side marks.JPG
228.46 KB O.P.Hbg. translates to Ordungs Polizei. Hamburg.
 

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Huggiebear
Very hice Ortgies and holster.

Your correct is stating that these pistols are not appreciated by gun collectors, as they have an excellent design and are well made. There are no screws used in these guns.

Heinrich Ortgies started manufacturing these weapons in Berlin and production was later moved to Erfurt. They made only 3 models of Ortgies. Production started in 1920 and was discontinued around 1929.

They were never used during the Imperial period.
Joe
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I believe that the facts are that the patent was applied for in 1916 and from about 22,000 to 32,000 serial range, as best as I can determine at this time, were acquired by the Imperial Army and so stamped with the Gothic D acceptance stamp as I have one so marked. This fictional "1920" was first printed many years ago in publications and has been repeated every since by others not knowing of the facts. Joe Schroeder produced the correct data of these patents and explained this out in Auto Mag a number of years back.
 

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Huggirbear

You may be correct as to the 1916 start date for Ortgies production, but is there any evidence of Ortgies pistols with any Imperial proof marks.

Imperial proof marks would answer the question.

Joe
 

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quote:Originally posted by Gercolctor

Huggirbear

but is there any evidence of Ortgies pistols with any Imperial proof marks.

Imperial proof marks would answer the question.

Joe
If your read huggie's post, I believe that he stated that he had an Ortgies so marked.

"I believe that the facts are that the patent was applied for in 1916 and from about 22,000 to 32,000 serial range, as best as I can determine at this time, were acquired by the Imperial Army and so stamped with the Gothic D acceptance stamp as I have one so marked."
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Yes, as stated previously I have an example of such marks and will post on another thread in the near future. Give me some time and I'll assure you that it will be worth the wait as the pistol has a long history and took me some number of months to uncover it all. It is as they say, a hum-dinger !!
 

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Huggiebear
Sorry, I read you post too fast and missed the part you had an Imperial stamped Ortiges.

Looking forward to the pictures. They will correct a lot of misinformation about the origins of this pistol.
Joe
 

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Huggiebear and all,
Very nice pistol and holster. You sure have some nice ones. This might seem odd, but when I purchase pistols for my WW2 collection that are pre-WW2 production, I try to come as close to that era as I can with the serial numbers. So, my question is what would be the late range of numbers in 7.65mm Ortgies production? What would be the correct proofs and slide markings? I would assume that any one marked "Germany" was an export gun. You are right that these pistols are often overlooked from a military collector stand point. Dean
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I have slowly came to the realization that every cartridge firearm found on the European Continent was used by the then German Forces. As for the Ortgies, whether or not it had " GERMANY " stamped on slide ,is incidential as it was used by the German Forces. This "export" stamp was merely applied at the factory in case some later had found their way into the export market which then did not require the necessary stamping to be applied before shipment. I don't believe it makes a slug of difference what the serial range is as all the firearms were used in one manner or another. The vast majority of Ortgies that were found here in the States , have been brought over by immigrant arriving post war and not sold here. As for the uses of Ortgies in Germany, I have 2 Kreigsmarine holsters, 3 Luftwaffe, and 1 Wehrmacht, 1 RBD, and told of 1 RFV. Have 3 Nazi police examples. I must say that all the Service's holsters were contracted pieces for private purchased firearms.
 

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Garfield,

I never saw and heard anything about Imperial marked Ortgies pistols .
Perhaps the shown copy will help to clear up the patent question.

Fritz



Download Attachment: Cover_Patent-303879.jpg
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The date of issue is a vague date. Normally, a Letter of Patent (Patent specification) was printed/issued two to four weeks after the date of Grant.

Conclusion: this Patent was applied in July 1916, but it was granted in August/September 1921.

ONLY AFTER A PATENT WAS GRANTED, THE PATENTEE WAS ALLOWED TO USE THE WORD "PATENT" ON THE PATENTED OBJECTS.
 

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Fritz:

While I am following this discussion with bated breath, I can't contribute to the patent issue or whether this pistol was or was not used by the German military in WWI; my sole contribution was to quote huggie.

Thanks for the copy of the patent.

Good Huntint,
 

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My friend thank you for for caring about Ortgies and attempting to educate those collectors in an attempt to help them appreciate its history.

'the most misunderstood .......unrecognized and unappreciated by historians/collectors world wide'
 

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I have slowly came to the realization that every cartridge firearm found on the European Continent was used by the then German Forces. As for the Ortgies, whether or not it had " GERMANY " stamped on slide ,is incidential as it was used by the German Forces. This "export" stamp was merely applied at the factory in case some later had found their way into the export market which then did not require the necessary stamping to be applied before shipment. I don't believe it makes a slug of difference what the serial range is as all the firearms were used in one manner or another. The vast majority of Ortgies that were found here in the States , have been brought over by immigrant arriving post war and not sold here. As for the uses of Ortgies in Germany, I have 2 Kreigsmarine holsters, 3 Luftwaffe, and 1 Wehrmacht, 1 RBD, and told of 1 RFV. Have 3 Nazi police examples. I must say that all the Service's holsters were contracted pieces for private purchased firearms.
I agree the “Germany” means nothing. It was a post WWI requirement of Great Britain to have products made in Germany marked as such. It actually backfired on GB as the German products were high quality for the most part and then people started looking for it. It has been established for many years the stamp does not mean the pistols were exported.
 
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