Jan C. Still Lugerforums banner
1 - 16 of 16 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi all, I wanted to share a Luger rig I purchased a few months ago along with some questions about the proof marks and the holster it came in.

I bought this Luger, a blank chamber, blank toggle, E/WaA66, SN 2858 u, thinking it was a Simpson "Sneak". It has a sear safety and the remnants of a magazine safety (removed). It is police unit marked L.Mi.178. does anyone know what this translates to? The Serial numbers are in the commercial style. Research in Weimar Lugers by Jan Still indicates this is a 1929 DWM, Costanszo indicates the E/WaA66 is a Simpson proof. Kenyon in Lugers at Random said both Simpson and Mauser used the E/WaA66 stamp, and that Simpsons are identified by the Simpson Eagle. My inclination is to believe Still, as he represents latter research. What does the Simpson Eagle look like? Is it only used in conjunction with a number (6 or 37)? Who did this gun, DWM, Simpson, or Mauser? I can't quite make out the third stamp on the right side of the reciever, even with magnification and a strong light. What does it mean and what possible stamps could this be? What do these other stamps on the receiver and barrel indicate? Were they the same for all manufacturers? All of the reference books say than many of the reworks have larger than normal serial number fonts? 2858 u does not look like a large font, does this mean it is a new production piece or is it still a rework of an earlier gun? What else can be determined about this gun?


Download Attachment: DSC00788.JPG
60.24KB

Download Attachment: DSC00792.JPG
61.06KB

Download Attachment: DSC00794.JPG
62.56KB

Download Attachment: DSC00778.JPG
59.01KB

Download Attachment: DSC00790.JPG
60.5KB

Download Attachment: DSC00780.JPG
62.1KB

Download Attachment: DSC00781.JPG
57.48KB

Download Attachment: DSC00770.JPG
58.32KB

Download Attachment: DSC00774.JPG
62.84KB

Download Attachment: DSC00772.JPG
61.03KB

Download Attachment: DSC00783.JPG
61.44KB

Download Attachment: DSC00784.JPG
62.19KB

Download Attachment: DSC00786.JPG
61.9KB

Download Attachment: DSC00785.JPG
57.93KB
Thanks for your help?
Bob Maddix

Download Attachment: DSC00787.JPG
60.53KB

The gun came in an unusual holster with two straps at 90 degrees to one another on the back (see pictures). The holster is unit marked 2/F.6.80, not the same as the pistol. Can anyone tell me what unit this signifies? The magazine pouch on the holster is very dark as is most of the leading edge of the holster. The leather is hard in the dark areas. One collector friend of mine suggested that the strange strap arrangement was for motorcycle use. This might explain the dark front edge if it were mounted closer to the exhaust, but this is only speculation. Has anyone seen this type of strap arrangement? Any documentation on what it was used for?

The luger came with two matching magazines, numbered 1 and 3, and a tool with the 178 unit mark stamped on it, 1260 has been crossed out.

All in all it's a nice rig, I was hoping it was a Simpson but if it is a DWM it's still a keeper.
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
6,233 Posts
Very nice Luger. "Sneaks" are pretty cool. I think your unit marking indicates Air Surveillance Police, Minden.

I believe your holster is a modern Pakistani reproduction.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,194 Posts
Bob, The markings on your holster are Reichswehr 2nd Fahr-Abteilung(Driving Department), 6th Eskadron, Weapon nr 80.
The holster appears to have been made with a belt loop and attachment for shoulder strap. Considering that most vehicles of the period , especially lorries (trucks) had open cabs with no doors. could account for the discoloration and ridgity. Rain, mud splatter etc. IMO the holster is legit, and possibly a rare variation. The Paki holsters I have seen have similar,yet different and disfunctional loops. I think it's a truck drivers holster.

Just my impression, Ron
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,532 Posts
quote:All of the reference books say than many of the reworks have larger than normal serial number fonts? 2858 u does not look like a large font
Not something I have experienced in the police field... I have seen larger fonts, esp on magazines, but it isn't something that I would call common.

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Jan,
Thanks for the comments and the link to your discussion on 29 DWM's. I really wanted a Simpson so I guess I wanted this to be one, but I also want to know the truth about the history of the Lugers in my collection. It is an excellent rig and I am happy I was able to acquire it.

I did notice in the pictures, 8085 t only had one proof or acceptance mark, the E/WaA66. 2858 u has three, a "plain" eagle, the E/WaA66 and another mark I can't identify. Does anyone know what the plain eagle is for? Or what the third mark is or should be (I still can't quite make it out, it looks like an eagle but I am not sure)?

One other note I didn't include on the holster, as far as I can tell it doesn't have any maker marks or any other marking besides the 2/F.6.80 unit mark. Is this common? Most of my WWI and WWII holsters are marked in some fashion, even if I can't read all of them. This holster doesn't appear to have any marks at all.

Thanks again to everyone for the help in identifying this Luger.
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
6,233 Posts
Regarding the missing maker marks on the holster, I have never known the Pakistanis to mark their holsters. It's not German.

The unit marks are either an attempt at forgery or a reenactor's work.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,194 Posts
Geo, OK,OK, I'll have to bow to your judgement as to the holsters origin. I'm still not convinced that it's a repro. From what I've learned from Jerry. There are still aspects of it that lead me to believe that it's original. For one, the hinge. The flap is not sewn directly to the back. It has an intrigal hinge. Weimar era holsters are often found without marks. And I don't understand why,if someone were going to add a unit mark. That they would use an obscure Weimar Reichswehr era transportation or drivers unit mark.
However, Keoki. I will submit to the pro, for now. Keep your guard up. I may be back. ;)
Your friend , Ron
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,532 Posts
quote:Originally posted by donmaus

Since the gun is "u-block" (1929), unit is definitely Landjägerei (rural police) Minden.
Whoah, whoah, there... I think it "could" be Minden, but why "U" block equals Minden... Never read that anywhere?


News to me, doesn't mean I am right????

Ed
 

·
Copper Bullet Member
Joined
·
3,500 Posts
Ed,
I was probably too succinct. What I meant was that, since the gun was not produced until 1929 ("u" block), the "L" is almost certainly for "Landjägerei" and not for the "Luftwhatever" listed in the 1922 orders. That "Mi." = Minden is a separate identification based on both the 1922 and 1932 Prussian marking orders.
 

·
Administrator
Joined
·
15,532 Posts
Oh, gotcha, thought maybe I missed something!

You are correct and very good eye to know the difference! See us "old dogs" can learn too!

Ed
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Geo,

I don't want to cause trouble amongst the troops, but I am curious why you are so sure the holster is a modern copy? It doesn't look like any of the copies I have seen, although I am not an expert. The construction, sitch patterns and thread are the same as other Luger holsters I have. There are wear marks on the inside that were made by the Luger pistol and look as though they took some time to create. If it is a modern reproduction someone went to a lot of trouble to stress it, wear it, and harden the leather, and they used a Luger or an exact copy to produce the wear marks. Is there something in pictures that is a dead giveaway for a reproduction? The only thing I was puzzled by was the strap arrangement, I have seen other Luger holsters with this arrangement, but didn't know what it was for. If there is somthing that nails this as a repo please tell me what it is, I don't want to get another one.

Thanks
Bob Maddix
 

·
Platinum Bullet member
Joined
·
6,233 Posts
Bob, it's the straps. I have never seen such an arrangement on anything but a Paki job. I don't know who contracted out the work to the Pakis, but there must have been more than one producer. There were probably lots of guys in villages knocking these out for some poohbah back in the sixties/seventies. Arty holsters and double mag pouches are also common. They show up in Europe as well as the States.

Here are two that I have.

Download Attachment: MVC-013F.JPG
61.43KB

Download Attachment: MVC-014F.JPG
63.75KB
 
1 - 16 of 16 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top