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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Today I purchased a so-called Black Widow from a dealer in a gun show here in Dallas, TX. Unfortunately, I don't know much about Lugers and fell for the crap about the gun was issued only to SS troops. Also it has a low serial number of 254 which I thought would make it more collectible.

The gun seems to be in pretty good shape though; but I got nothing more for my $2000 investment. Yes, I know now it's probably way too much to spend.

Can anyone take a look at the photos attached and tell me what you think?

Mike



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I think you paid too much for it, but not incredible. It looks like a really nice byf 1941 made by Mauser. Jan estimates that there were about 126,000 made. Looks like a nice start to a collection!

A good gun will always go up in value, that is for sure.

Ed
 

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Mike,

A three digit serial number does not mean it's a low serial number. Lugers were number from 1 - 10000 then repeated changing the letter suffix. Each year the serial number continued from the previous year, it did not start over again. Your's is a 1st variation 41 byf which were serial numbers 3300n-9950a. I couldn't tell from the pictures, but does your have letter under the serial number.

My first Luger was a 41 byf with serial number 257 t. If you could post a picture of the inside of the grips, we could probably verify if the grips are original.

Take care and enjoy the Luger,

Tracy
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
quote:Originally posted by tracy

Mike,
A three digit serial number does not mean it's a low serial number. ....

My first Luger was a 41 byf with serial number 257 t. If you could post a picture of the inside of the grips, we could probably verify if the grips are original.

Tracy
Tracy,

There are no letters under the 254 serial number. I've done my best to take photos of the insides of each of the grips. Thanks for you help on this matter.

Mike



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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Tracy, scroll down and you'll see the response and photos of the grips
quote:Originally posted by tracy

Mike,

A three digit serial number does not mean it's a low serial number. Lugers were number from 1 - 10000 then repeated changing the letter suffix. Each year the serial number continued from the previous year, it did not start over again. Your's is a 1st variation 41 byf which were serial numbers 3300n-9950a. I couldn't tell from the pictures, but does your have letter under the serial number.

My first Luger was a 41 byf with serial number 257 t. If you could post a picture of the inside of the grips, we could probably verify if the grips are original.

Take care and enjoy the Luger,

Tracy
 

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Tracy, I recently picked up a BYF41 with 2 black fxo mags, tool and nice 41 dated holster for 2300.00. My pistol is approx 98%. So, you probably paid a little to much. But, hey, it doesn't eat much!! If you keep it, you'll come out ahead..

jeff
 

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No Henry, this is a common theme and story, it is simply not true. These were issued to anyone that needed a luger... In fact, there are so many fake grips out there, because of these stories (and because it brings more money).

In fact, here are several stories we hear on the forums all the time:

1. This chromed (or nickled) gun is an officers pistol, only officers got chromed ones. BS A gun for war would not be nickled, this was done AFTER the war by the germans to sell to GI's or more likely, by GI himself.

2. It was taken off of an SS Officer. This is an in-between BS and real life. German soldiers uniforms were very different from ours, and a GI might not know the difference from an officer and a enlisted, let alone any officer and an SS. Plus, like above, it sells the gun better.

3. Taken in battle... Likely, but also it is likely the guns were picked up after the war after collected... I say this because of several facts, when you see a bring back paperwork, there is a huge amount that is dated AFTER the war. Plus, any extra equipment was extra weight to carry, and the persistent rumour that any GI caught with a german gun would be executed if captured. This is not to say many guns weren't picked up during battle or afterwards, it is just something to consider.

Ed
 

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Not knowing alot about black widow grips, but, by reading everything in the forum, I'd say those grips are repros!! Any comment?? Also, wasn't it Ralph Shattuck that coined the phrase "Black Widow"? I've heard that on the forum and at other collector "meetings".

Dave
 

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Mike, you can always buy some original "black widow" grips, or some original wood WW2 ones.


Tracy, good to see you posting here again.

Ed
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks Tracy, I'll take your quote and email it to the dealer I purchased it from. He assured me today, in fact, that the grips are original. He has a large luger collection. So I'll put the burden on him to provide me with a set of original plastic grips. He seems like a reasonable man. He also told me today that he'd mail me a 1941 luger holster. I suppose that's the least he could do to help right the wrong.

Mike

quote:Originally posted by tracy

Mike,

The grips on your 41 are not original. I have four so called "Black Widows". Original grips are hard and the texture on the back is smooth. Here's a picture of Pete Ebbink's grips from the lugerforum. Pete, hope you don't mind.

Tracy

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If the question of the authenticity of different types of synthetic Luger grips is ever to be clarified, it would seem to be necessary to seek the advice of plastics experts, preferaby people with experience in the German plastics industry at that time.

New types of plastic (Phenol, Ceresit & Bakelit) were being developed towards the end of WWII and, at that time, central government regulations governing standardisation and marking were not always strictly implemented. Without original documentation or other evidence, plastic grips are always going to be difficult to authenticate.

In future, different types of West or East German, Russian and other Luger plastic grips might also become collectors´items.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
hi,I wouldn't mind owning some nice repro black plastic grips.plastic is not acidic & doesn't hold any moisture against my valuable steel.the east german bakelite bullseye grips look like a "Daisy" production...where can I find some one to take advantage of me by selling me repro black widow grips? thanks
 

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Craig, put a want ad here on the trader board on this forum. It will stay better otwards the top, and have your name associated with it.

Ed
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
hi all,I found a good source of replacement grips = www.vintagegungrips.com -I bought a set of their black widow grips,& will keep my original wooden grips nice,off the gun-which I bought to shoot.plastic does not hold moisture-etc.very satisfied with quality.
 
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