[Guest]

I know enough about WWII german weapons to I scored!!! I need your help to assist me in figuring out just how big I did score.

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The pistol is a DMW, serial # 3176, Dated 1920 (no other dates appear)
There is a cursive letter n below the serial number

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ALL parts are marked with a 76 including the inside of the checkered wooden grips. The grip is overstamped with the following letters
S. Me. I 772. I cannot decipher what the previous stamping was. I know this is the specific unit issue of the gun. I know S is for heavy and 'I' is for Infantry but 'Me' escapes me. for some reason my pictures are not uploading as I preview this.

The holster is marked STGT. FEUER above the year 1939. It is as nice as I have ever seen and supple. THe mags are not matching.
THe right side of the pistol has the three waffenamt markings that came about in 1919/1920.
Acouple of questions- is it true that commercial lugers us a 5 digit number and that lugers using only 4 digits are military?

Specific to magazines, does a number 2 on a magazine designate a secondary magazine? the overall condition on this gun is 85% I would say. I took a ton of photos but for some reason they do not post. I will try again. Thanks for any help. ww2gunz in Denver.

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[wterrell]

The names of the last two pics have the character # in them. Remove the # character from the names and try uploading again.

Regards,
wes

 

[lugerlou]

WW2gunz

Hello and welcome to the forum , you scored just fine not big and not small .The 1920 stamp is a reichswehr property stamp and not a date. Look to see if the original date has been ground off the chamber.

Still reports in Weimar lugers that some 5000 lugers went to the police ,navy,military. These lugers were to conform to the treaty of versailles and many have been rebarelled and some were shortened lange P08's.

You have two different magazines due to the size of the follower button, the one with the flatter button being earliest. Is the word haenel and a arrow present on any of the magazines and is their any symbols on the magazine bottoms

As to your question regarding the numbering on the magazines the police of which yours has been desiginated is due to the grip markings and the police utilized numbers one and two. The military examples had the + sign to denote the second magazine.

Your question on the 5 digit numbers belonging to the commercial block and the four digit numbers belonging to the military are correct albeit the commercial luger was taken out of production and restamped to fullfill shortfalls in the military. Unless you obtain a very early commercial or a shop rework of the weimar period the 5 digit will hold true on the commercial luger except for the 1920 alphabet commercial which would exhibit the commercial proof of the crown/N

The three waffenamt markings you state that are on the right side of the pistol I believe are imperial proofs as your luger was taken from the imperial era and restamped with the 1920 property mark. On this point could you please explain the type of markings as this alone could prove my analysis of your luger totally wrong.

In the absence of pictures or ones that do not turn out a complete and detailed post describing all markings would assist the forum members to accurately evaluate your luger.

Good luck on your next one.

Grip markings S-Sanitats-Medical S-schule-school Or the S could simply be for Schutzpolizei- municipal police force Me-Merseburg

I - Infantry 772 is the weapon number.

I suspect that your luger was assigned to a medical unit in Merseburg or maybe a municipal police force in the town of Merseburg as the weimar period after the German loss of the First world war was a period of unrest.

 

[Guest]

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one of the magazines is marked 'SCHMEISSER'and has the word HAENEL inside an arrow on it. It is numbered 7163 and has a number 2 above the 7163. there is a dove/eagle or bird logo below that. I have attempted to photograph these with no luck. the curvature and lighting are conspiring to obscure the numerals. Lugerlou has already explained this marking. the other mag is marked 362. Below that is a cursive letter 'i' in small case. below that is a cross or plus (+) sign.

Again, I cannot get a clear photo of the left side of the receiver eagle markings. they are of the type that had a ArA4 marking under the eagle.

The markings on the underside of the barrel near the chamber are the serial number above a cursive 'n'. Upon closer inspection, I can see the numbers 8,83 just to the right of the cursive 'n' as a previous or secondary stamp.

I cannot get a clear photo of the '1920' mark on the receiver but it looks like it has not been overstamped. In my research, there would be two dates on the receiver for the weapons marked 1920 not actually made in that year. 1920 would appear OVER the original date of manufacture in some cases, in others, the original date would be ground off and '1920' put in its place. I cannot tell. the weapon looks clean of previous markings and matches 1920 markings I have observed on other Lugers. Again, I am not an expert so I leave it to the experts. I should mention in closing that I paid $800 for this set-up. the loading tool is not marked, but included in the nearly mint holster flap. I hope my explanations of markings and things that I could not photograph are sufficient. Thanks again you guys.

 

[Edward Tinker]

quote:Originally posted by ww2gunz


one of the magazines is marked 'SCHMEISSER'and has the word HAENEL inside an arrow on it. It is numbered 7163 and has a number 2 above the 7163. there is a dove/eagle or bird logo below that. I have attempted to photograph these with no luck. the curvature and lighting are conspiring to obscure the numerals. Lugerlou has already explained this marking. the other mag is marked 362. Below that is a cursive letter 'i' in small case. below that is a cross or plus (+) sign.
.
.

The markings on the underside of the barrel near the chamber are the serial number above a cursive 'n'. Upon closer inspection, I can see the numbers 8,83 just to the right of the cursive 'n' as a previous or secondary stamp.

I cannot get a clear photo of the '1920' mark on the receiver but it looks like it has not been overstamped. In my research, there would be two dates on the receiver for the weapons marked 1920 not actually made in that year. 1920 would appear OVER the original date of manufacture in some cases, in others, the original date would be ground off and '1920' put in its place.

Let me help on a few things;

The mag with the 2 is for police, HAENEL made them for police and others, but you commonally see them for police. The #2, means 2nd magazine, you also see #1 and #3 marked police magazines.

The + means secondary mag for army pistol magazeins.

The 1920 markings can mean several things;

1. It was made in 1920 and thus is DATED 1920

2. It is the Reichswehr 1920 property stamping.

Some guns were 1920 marked for Reichswehr and never were orginally stamped, i.e. commerical, or early non-marked gun, or newly made in the early 1920's.

The 8,83 is the land to land marking, after being checked, if they were within limits, approx. 8,81 to 8,85 then they were stamped as approved with the number.

The "n" is the suffix that goes with the serial number, so whatever the serial number is, plus the suffix, can help pinpoint the date range of manufacture.

From Weimar Lugers, there were "n" suffix guns made, but in approx., 1924. It is still possible that the 1920 is a Reichwehr property marking, as this was a weird time in Germany and many units assumed and didn't know they didn't need to mark their guns 1920 anymore, but some still did.

Also, it could be a imperial that was ground and the 1920 added, since this was done by the factory, it would be much harder to tell than a reground job by a local yokel gunsmith in america...

Ed

 

[lugerlou]

ww2gunz

Thankyou for trying to repost the pictures, you may wish to use a white grease pencil or laquer stick which should be available through brownells to highlight the markings.

You have confirmed that one of the magazines were haenel/Schmeisser. The dove is a rare bird so to speak and could be worth a lot of bucks by itself, some of the Haenel Schmeisser police mags are highly sought after by collectors trying to complete a rig.

As you are absolutely sure of the right side receiver markings being ArA4 underneath a dove not a eagle these markings are mostly found on the newly manufactured 1920 and 1921 dated 20 DWM lugers and1920/1921 and the overstamped 1920 property mark of the alaphabet DWM lugers. If yours is thus stamped and is not a reworked imperial but a new manufactured weimar luger ( alphabet DWM)It is the last two digits of the serial number on the inside of the grips and suffix letter that have me still leaning to an Imperial era luger however this may not be the case.
As to your pricetag , right in the ball park

Your serial number suffix (N) still bothers me and does not fit a newly manufactured luger either, I will stick with my initial post. Reworked Imperial luger with the ground off chamber date and the Imperial proofs on the receiver with the factory reapplying 1920 property stamp and the Aar4 receiver stamps.

 

[keoki7]

Rel, I have a 98/05 aA bayonet put into post war service. The guard is property marked 1920, the scabbard is marked S.Me.II.59. I'm quite certain that both your luger and my bayonet were Weimar police issue.

 

[keoki7]

According to Gortz, these S.Me. marked weapons were the property of the Police in Meresberg.

 

[Guest]

Lucky me, I just happened to run into Aaron Davis (the author) this weekend, we both live in COlorado and we were at the same militaria show where I was looking for an expert opinion. The gun is a Wiemar era gun made in 1920. post Imperial and pre Nazi. A 'scarce' gun but seems most Luger enthusiasts want an imperial or nazi luger. Strictly Wiemar era guys are fairly rare I am told, but would be very excited about this pistol. Thank all of you for the assistance. Aaron confirmed what most of you said. What a great resource the gunboards are. Thank you!!!!

 

[garfield]

What, of significance, did Aaron Davis author?

 

[keoki7]

I'm glad that "Aaron Davis (the author)" was able to confirm some of our offerings. I was afraid I might be treading on thin ice.

Nice to see you back Garfield.

 

[Navy]

Welcome back Judge.

Davis is the author of that pocket sized paper back classification guide. The one that has the logic trees to assist in identification of Lugers.

Tom A.

 

[garfield]

Thanks for the "Hello", Gents.

Re: Davis: I am faniliar with the "pocket thing". I ask again, what of significance did he author?

 

[Edward Tinker]

garfield, I wrote a lengthy remark about this, then never hit submit.

Essentially, I said, Aaron wrote some interesting small books, but the researched books that have NOT had a lot of flak for mistakes have been Jan Still's books. Kenyon is pretty good, although dated, Walters is good for a european angle, but Davis is not of the same research as Jans and no offense meant to Aaron, but there are mistakes, i.e. old facts stated as truisms, that are not considered facts today in his "book"...

Ed

 

[garfield]

Ed:

A very charitable critque.

 

[lugerlou]

ww2gunz
Not to bat the bag anymore but a few questions.

Did you ask Mr. Davis the author where the ( N ) suffix block fits in on the 1920 Weimar period of the 1920 dated luger.I would be interested where a new manufactured luger dated 1920 with a suffix from 1924 fits into the scheme of things.

You are correct that some like the imperial and others like the Nazi era but nothing is wrong with the weimar lugers, trouble is you cannot change the fact that the (N) suffix does not fit the 1920 dated & manufactured luger of the weimar period.

I personally will trust the data in Weimar lugers vis a vie the serial number block charts.

The little book belongs on the shelf.

 

[Guest]

WHOA, WHOA, WHOA !!!! Sorry fellas, I am as green as they get when it comes to Lugers so let me clarify. I went on Amazon.com and other WWII specific firearms-sites to get info on this Luger. Aaron Davis (the author)(for some reason, that incited some angst among some of you. He did write the (a) book, and as a newbie to this, I have no idea of the validity of it's content, but I have seen his name in relation to a Luger reference book. that's all. I do not own it and I have not read it) If it is the worst book on the market or just somewhere in the mid-range on the totem pole, and has glaring mistakes, I WOULDN'T KNOW!!! Compared to me, he is an expert. He made it VERY clear that Weimar Lugers were NOT his forte'. I respectfully offer my apologies to any of you that were so helpful to me that found my reference to Aaron Davis (the author- jeez, I just wanted to be clear about WHICH Aaron Davis I talked to. The phone book in any city is full of 'em)offensive. Again, the caption of this thread is NEW TO LUGERS. I am learning daily about this hobby. I am 35 years old and have a reasonably impressive firearms collection from both World Wars with the accessories from head to toe to go with it. I have 25 mannequins in combat dress in my basement (can you say "geek") and I try like hell to know every angle of the impressions I am putting together. Lugers are brand new to me in regards to the markings, era, etc. Lugerlou- I too asked specifically about the cursive 'n' in relation to a 1920 police luger and Mr. Davis (the pocket-sized paperback writer) did not challenge nor confirm my queries. He simply said that the luger was a "1920 Weimar police gun and regardless what anyone said, it was a solid piece." This hobby/profession is filled with experts. I am learnig the ropes. I really appreciate all of the feedback you guys left. I envy your wealth of knowledge. Just remember, you all started from somewhere too, and nobody ever intends to look like a novice- but when you have a Luger rig in your hand and you meet a guy that you KNOW has a book out on the subject- you listen. I have gained a wealth of knowledge based on the subtle and not so subtle comments you guys have collectively left since my last submission. If this Luger remains unidentified, and you are able to help, but need more info/photos, I know how to provide that now thanks to this forum. I truly appreciate the brains on this thread. You guys are awesome. Thanks. Respectfully, Rel in Denver

 

[Edward Tinker]

Rel, no one meant anything by it, we're just all opinionated!

Denver 'ey?

We could probably chat fairly easy, since I work off of I-25 and Lincoln, :>)

And you DID score, it is a nice rig!

Ed

 

[Guest]

I appreciate that this forum's members all have unique knowledge. Mr. Davis was very giving of his time and I learned something about all of the pieces I had with me. He is also a nice guy and very personable, although nobody in this forum questioned that. Back to the gun-The 1920 date on the top of this piece appears to be the original and only date with no trace of having been overstamped. There are Weimar eagles all over the gun, but no Imperial or Nazi marks. The cursive 'n' continues to defy the date though. I would love to have another learned eye check the gun out and get a definitive ruling on exactly what it is that everyone can agree on without any question. With all the markings present and the wealth of knowledge available, I hope to nail down this pistol. Thanks, Ed.

 

[keoki7]

Originally posted by keoki7

Rel, I have a 98/05 aA bayonet put into post war service. The guard is property marked 1920, the scabbard is marked S.Me.II.59. I'm quite certain that both your luger and my bayonet were Weimar police issue.

quote]

I was digging through some boxes yesterday and found another S.Me. marked bayonet. This is a dress bayonet that I picked up years ago before I became interested in unit marks. Both the 98/05 and the dress bayonet were issued within the same sub district in Mersberg. "S.Me.II.59." and "S.Me.II.569.". Too bad I don't collect police Lugers...maybe I should get just one.

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