Ortgies Pistol with 1920 Stamp and Holster, Police issue?
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A nice one. Thank you for showing.
Regards
Stefan
Regards
Stefan
Thank you for showing this one. I have owned several in the past but am not a expert. However that has to be a early production pistol with the slide address. with the two button safety If I remember correctly those are generally considered to have been a requirement for police issue.
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Beautiful rig! The second button safety required a screw being added to the grips. From my experience, these have always been considered police modifications. Could you add a pic of the under barrel serial number please?
Thanks
William
Thanks
William
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1,972 Posts
Very nice! Ortiges are not often seen in non-commercial forms. The second button safety and screwed grips are factory features, but are indeed generally considered police requirements.
Another indicator that this was an agency pistol are the magazines. Commercial Ortgies came with nickeled magazines, service guns were delivered with blued ones.
I think Don Maus located the sale of Ortgies to Deutsche Werke around serial 15,000, so this would be a relatively early DW version from no earlier than 1920. The 1920 stamp thus cannot mean the pistol was old Reichswehr property; instead, it was likely purchased for the short-lived Sicherheitspolizei (security police) of one of the German states, which were required to 1920-stamp their arms like the Reichswehr.
The only unsupported suggestion I have about the S stamp is that the state of Saarland used the circle-S as a state police identifier. That, however, was not under German control until 1935.
I think Don Maus located the sale of Ortgies to Deutsche Werke around serial 15,000, so this would be a relatively early DW version from no earlier than 1920. The 1920 stamp thus cannot mean the pistol was old Reichswehr property; instead, it was likely purchased for the short-lived Sicherheitspolizei (security police) of one of the German states, which were required to 1920-stamp their arms like the Reichswehr.
The only unsupported suggestion I have about the S stamp is that the state of Saarland used the circle-S as a state police identifier. That, however, was not under German control until 1935.
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@ Ed Hicks
Find attached pictures of a sister of your Ortgies, which is in my collection.
Regards
Stefan
![Air gun Trigger Wood Gun barrel Wood stain]()
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Regards
Stefan
Find attached pictures of a sister of your Ortgies, which is in my collection.
Regards
Stefan
Regards
Stefan
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364 Posts
Early guns came with blued magazines, later ones had nickel finish. The change most likely took place with the third variant. However, it has nothing to do with service or commercial use.
Regards
Stefan
Apparently, this opinion does not match the data gathered by the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Polizeigeschichte (Band "Weimarer Republik", S. 316). Their statement must at least match their collections, although I can't judge the quality of sources.
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@Absalom,
My judgement is not based on opinion. I know five basic types of magazines.
1. blued, pinned baseplate, holes in a straight line
2. nickel / chrome, pinned base plate, holes in a straight line
3. blued, pinned baseplate, holes staggered
4. nickel / chrome, pinned base plate, holes staggered
5. mate nickel, patented base plate, holes staggered
German Patent No. 393629 (09 April 1921) was granted 9 April 1921. The patent describes the method of construction wherein the lower edges of the sides of the magazine form flanges that wrap around the base plate to hold it on. Thus, if we find these magazines in guns prior to early 1921 one can for sure say that they are mismatched.
In my collection I do have 14 7.65mm or 9mm Ortgies of which some have the button safety or can be attributed to service use due to stamping.
What one can say is that due to the patent 393629 all guns before that date should have pinned baseplate magazines. One finds pinned magazines with polished nickel or blued finish, straight and staggered holes.
I cannot clearly attribute blued magazines to service use and nickel ones to commercial use. Especially with early service and commercial guns, we find either blued or nickel ones with pinned baseplates. Additionally, we also find service guns with nickel magazines with the patented baseplate.
Thus, I must say that the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Polizeigeschichte is wrong with its absolute distinction of magazine types used in commercial and service guns.
Regards
Stefan
My judgement is not based on opinion. I know five basic types of magazines.
1. blued, pinned baseplate, holes in a straight line
2. nickel / chrome, pinned base plate, holes in a straight line
3. blued, pinned baseplate, holes staggered
4. nickel / chrome, pinned base plate, holes staggered
5. mate nickel, patented base plate, holes staggered
German Patent No. 393629 (09 April 1921) was granted 9 April 1921. The patent describes the method of construction wherein the lower edges of the sides of the magazine form flanges that wrap around the base plate to hold it on. Thus, if we find these magazines in guns prior to early 1921 one can for sure say that they are mismatched.
In my collection I do have 14 7.65mm or 9mm Ortgies of which some have the button safety or can be attributed to service use due to stamping.
| Serial number | magazine finish | staggering of holes | base plate | comment |
| 1 | blued | straight | pinned | prototype |
| 1491 | nickel | staggered | patented | 9mm, button safety, due to slide legend a fifth variant pistol, possibly numbered in a separate SN batch |
| 2324 | blued | straight | pinned | commercial |
| 4283 | nickel | staggered | patented | Dutch government contract, mismatched magazine |
| 13380 | blued | straight | pinned | commercial |
| 27831 | nickel | staggered | pinned | button safety, blued spare magazine, unit marking S.K. 2 |
| 29900 | nickel | straight | pinned | commercial |
| 36220 | nickel | straight | pinned | commercial |
| 40000 | nickel | staggered | pinned | commercial |
| 53336 | nickel | staggered | patented | commercial |
| 61666 | blued | straight | pinned | button safety |
| 66768 | nickel | staggered | patented | commercial |
| 81042 | nickel | straight | patented | commercial |
| 249859 | nickel | staggered | patented | commercial |
What one can say is that due to the patent 393629 all guns before that date should have pinned baseplate magazines. One finds pinned magazines with polished nickel or blued finish, straight and staggered holes.
I cannot clearly attribute blued magazines to service use and nickel ones to commercial use. Especially with early service and commercial guns, we find either blued or nickel ones with pinned baseplates. Additionally, we also find service guns with nickel magazines with the patented baseplate.
Thus, I must say that the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Polizeigeschichte is wrong with its absolute distinction of magazine types used in commercial and service guns.
Regards
Stefan
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Awesome Ortgies, I have a few myself, way ahead of its time from a manufacturing standpoint, and under appreciated
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Add another early 7.65 Ortgies commercial with a blued straight hole mag.
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If anybodies interested. Ortgies from Gun Collector Digest
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I recommend the following article.
The Koelliker article is a masterpiece of that time (1981), but is has some information which is not true. It all starts with the reported death of Heinrich Ortgies in 1919…
Regards
Stefan
The Koelliker article is a masterpiece of that time (1981), but is has some information which is not true. It all starts with the reported death of Heinrich Ortgies in 1919…
Regards
Stefan
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