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Sorry that I do not go with you. The P38 lanyard is one of a few weil documented items even with drawing and date. Thex can"t be many. What do you think how many mounted in horse soldiers has had a P38 or P08?
P.38 Lanyard
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Bin ich auch erst drauf reingefallen
The soldier on the right has a flare gun, but if you look closely, you can see the P38 dangling on the soldier on the left, amongst the cluster of stuff on his hip.
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I have seen flat and round lanyards both, don't think either was gun specific. The young soldier with the P38 has a messenger's pouch and gas mask front and center. He is possibly a motorcycle or bicycle courier. The soldier with the flare gun appears to have dirt (maybe dried blood?) on his face as well. Interesting photo. Guy in the back has a bag hung off his shoulder. I think these guys are a motorcycle group running recon or the like. Interesting pic.
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Not to argue, but I don't know about the number of surviving lanyards being evidence of how many were produced or issued. I feel like they came with the gun. When the P38 was chosen to replace the P08 they could have easily done away with the staple. There were large numbers of m Tasche boxes made for example but there are few survivors.
I feel like the boxes were firewood, and lanyards and other personal gear that wasn't used much just got tossed. Another possibility is they didn't hold up well and got tossed when buckle stitching failed. Soldiers tend to get rid of stuff they didn't want to carry. You don't see a lot of shaving kits for example either, but everybody got one. The fact the lanyards are canvass may be a factor in their rarity. Every gas mask cannister had a canvass sling. You can find cannisters all day, less than half will still have an original sling on them. What you don't find is a lot of loose slings or even a number comparable to the cannisters but every cannister had one. MP38/40 original dak or leather slings are the same way, they all had one but far more guns than original slings exist. JB
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Could be, I could see a lanyard being handy for any foot soldier in a trench in Karelia or the Arden too. I have my (step) Grandfather's trench lighter from WW1, they gave one to everyone, not just the smokers.
If there was a bunch of them that came to the US sometime back as posted above it would almost have to be all the remaining lanyards in the world then if only motorcycle groups or horse mounted soldiers (possibly police?) got them.
Some things will always be a mystery I guess.
If there was a bunch of them that came to the US sometime back as posted above it would almost have to be all the remaining lanyards in the world then if only motorcycle groups or horse mounted soldiers (possibly police?) got them.
Some things will always be a mystery I guess.
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After WW1, many leather lanyards were recycled as sewing machine drive belts. It is not impossible that WW2 lanyard were simply reused during and post war for whatever purpose.
Local stories still exist on the use of parachutes to make underwear. One of my uncles had a job salvaging engines from military equipment and reusing them in trucks.
German helmets were repurposed as kitchen wear, some with a nice enamel coating.
Local stories still exist on the use of parachutes to make underwear. One of my uncles had a job salvaging engines from military equipment and reusing them in trucks.
German helmets were repurposed as kitchen wear, some with a nice enamel coating.
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The question is who or how many of the mounted units used a P38 or a P08. I do not have informations for the time 1939/ 45 but during the Great War has an eskadron of a cavalry (120 mounted men) 19 Lugers.
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This also would follow that production or usage doesn't necessarily dictate surviving examples. Cool stuff on ww2 motorcycles There's room in an m Tashe for a lanyard.
I believe the posted documents speak against that. The P38 regulation specifies that „the lanyard 38 is only intended for mounted troops“. Then it states that it can also be used with the 08. Neither statement makes sense if it is included with every P38, rather than issued separately to specific users only.
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That's what I said upthread. I think they all had lanyards and most got tossed.
The "mounted only" theory was presented and light hearted discussion ensued. I attempted to explore that a bit more and based on moto use only there should be more lanyards. But I think the moto guys tossed theirs too. I looked at about 100 pics and can't find a single one.
It‘s not a theory. It‘s right in the regulations. Your idea that all pistols came with lanyards that were tossed is a hypothesis. It will remain that until you find actual evidence, like an inventory, or pistols in all-original packaging packed with lanyards.
Virtually all of the German horse mounted cavalry was disbanded (de-horsed) by the beginning of the war. A few units were revised in 1943 in Russia but that’s another story.
As for getting tossed….I doubt it. Many who have collected and observed Japanese bring back pistols say back in the 60s and 70s till now will attest to the not so rare occurrence of finding issue lanyards still present with those guns. While not extremely common, the Japanese lanyards were often encountered with those bring backs, unlike German pistol lanyards. Why didn’t the pacific GIs “toss” all of those as well? Many, I dare say most, German military pistols were provided with lanyard loops and rings going back to at least the 1870s. This includes many of the pocket pistols pressed into service both of German and non German origin. Frankly what I have observed is that most photos showing the use by Germans of pistol lanyards show them used with guns carried inside pockets like inside the panzer wrap simply hanging from the neck or sometimes shoulder. Over million P.38s produced with most made the last two years of the war. If lanyards were anything near 1:1 ratios to pistol we would have enough to lasso the moon. The Germans accounted for everything issued to soldiers down to handkerchiefs in their clothing records and they were held to high standards of accounting. Soldiers did not ditch tens of thousands of lanyards much less hundreds of thousands of them after issue, as they were not issued or made in anything like those numbers.
My best guess is that many went to Norway perhaps as a request from one or more of the mountain divisions stationed there and many remained in storage even until the 80s and 90s when they were part of the big sell off.
As for getting tossed….I doubt it. Many who have collected and observed Japanese bring back pistols say back in the 60s and 70s till now will attest to the not so rare occurrence of finding issue lanyards still present with those guns. While not extremely common, the Japanese lanyards were often encountered with those bring backs, unlike German pistol lanyards. Why didn’t the pacific GIs “toss” all of those as well? Many, I dare say most, German military pistols were provided with lanyard loops and rings going back to at least the 1870s. This includes many of the pocket pistols pressed into service both of German and non German origin. Frankly what I have observed is that most photos showing the use by Germans of pistol lanyards show them used with guns carried inside pockets like inside the panzer wrap simply hanging from the neck or sometimes shoulder. Over million P.38s produced with most made the last two years of the war. If lanyards were anything near 1:1 ratios to pistol we would have enough to lasso the moon. The Germans accounted for everything issued to soldiers down to handkerchiefs in their clothing records and they were held to high standards of accounting. Soldiers did not ditch tens of thousands of lanyards much less hundreds of thousands of them after issue, as they were not issued or made in anything like those numbers.
My best guess is that many went to Norway perhaps as a request from one or more of the mountain divisions stationed there and many remained in storage even until the 80s and 90s when they were part of the big sell off.
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I wasn't suggesting the GIs that brought the guns home tossed the lanyards, but that if they were issued with the pistols they were tossed (in theater) and not really trying to prove it either way. More just enjoying the discussion. Since the discussion started earlier I've been looking at calvary, motorcycle, armor, police, ss and general "uniform" pics.
It's starting to look like nobody used them. Or at least weren't being photographed with one. The pic upthread is the best evidence so far. Whomever they were issued to, So far I've found one photo of a lanyard on a radom with a uniform.
New hypothesis, all P38 lanyards are fake 😉
It's starting to look like nobody used them. Or at least weren't being photographed with one. The pic upthread is the best evidence so far. Whomever they were issued to, So far I've found one photo of a lanyard on a radom with a uniform.
New hypothesis, all P38 lanyards are fake 😉
I have seen a couple of pretty clear photographs of them being worn. I have no doubt that the pattern starting this thread existed warn time but in relatively small numbers compared to the million or so P.38s. That is not to say that they have not also been faked, as I believe I know that they have been as has most every item of web Germans individual equipment with some excellent fakes like web bayonet frogs going back around 30 years now or longer. One tip on exotic items is to study photos of grossdeutchland division and to some degree the LW HG division. These were popular units used to test new equipment and weapons and uniform items so many unusual things show up in photos of these units sometimes many many months before they were even formally adopted.
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Nachdem hier so fantasievoll spekuliert wurde, möchte ich mich daran mal beteiligen und den Verdacht äußern, dass zu jeder P38 direkt 2 (!) Fangriemen, oder vielleicht sogar 3 (!) ausgeliefert wurden, einen zum Benutzen, einen zum Verlieren und einen zum Wegwerfen; schade, dass damals nicht an uns Sammler gedacht wurde und ein 4. Exemplar für uns mitgeliefert wurde. Dann hätte jeder einen Fangriemen sein eigen nennen dürfen.
Im November 1935 wurde die Einführung, Handhabung und Unterbringung eines Pistolengurtes für die P08 in den Allgemeinen Heeresmitteilungen bekannt gegeben; auszurüsten waren Berittene des Heeres! Wie der Pistolengurt ausgesehen hat, geht daraus leider nicht hervor, lediglich der erwähnte Karabinerhaken kann als ein Indiz herangezogen werden, den einen oder anderen vorhandenen Fangriemen zur P08 in weitere Überlegungen mit einzuschließen oder zu verwerfen.
Ab Juli 1941 erhöhte sich der Bedarf an Fangriemen enorm, da nun auch Pistolenträger der Schnellen Truppe, Kradschützen- und Radfahrereinheiten auszustatten waren. Leider sagt das nichts über die Anzahl des Bedarfs an Pistolengurten aus und schon gar nicht über die Anzahl der wirklich ausgegebenen Gurte.
Dass Pistolengurte heute in so geringer Anzahl auszumachen sind, hängt sicher zum Teil daran, dass man sich nur schwer private Nutzung vorstellen kann, ähnlich ist es mit den Segeltuch- Beuteln für das Trommelmagazin: Einige hunderttausend wurden hergestellt und ausgegeben, heute sind sie dünn gesät. Selbst millionenfach hergestellte 08 Schraubenzieher sind kaum noch ausfindig zu machen....
Im November 1935 wurde die Einführung, Handhabung und Unterbringung eines Pistolengurtes für die P08 in den Allgemeinen Heeresmitteilungen bekannt gegeben; auszurüsten waren Berittene des Heeres! Wie der Pistolengurt ausgesehen hat, geht daraus leider nicht hervor, lediglich der erwähnte Karabinerhaken kann als ein Indiz herangezogen werden, den einen oder anderen vorhandenen Fangriemen zur P08 in weitere Überlegungen mit einzuschließen oder zu verwerfen.
Ab Juli 1941 erhöhte sich der Bedarf an Fangriemen enorm, da nun auch Pistolenträger der Schnellen Truppe, Kradschützen- und Radfahrereinheiten auszustatten waren. Leider sagt das nichts über die Anzahl des Bedarfs an Pistolengurten aus und schon gar nicht über die Anzahl der wirklich ausgegebenen Gurte.
Dass Pistolengurte heute in so geringer Anzahl auszumachen sind, hängt sicher zum Teil daran, dass man sich nur schwer private Nutzung vorstellen kann, ähnlich ist es mit den Segeltuch- Beuteln für das Trommelmagazin: Einige hunderttausend wurden hergestellt und ausgegeben, heute sind sie dünn gesät. Selbst millionenfach hergestellte 08 Schraubenzieher sind kaum noch ausfindig zu machen....
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