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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
P08 3082h is a standard 1915 DWM product with all matching parts and retaining all imperial proofs. Its conversion to police use is indicated by the added sear safety and number “82”to rear toggle axle . Also it was stamped with police markings “P.D.”for ? police school.These markings are uncommon and they were applied in an unusual manner.


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Figure 1. The completed P.D.471 (crossed out) and P.D.Br.2020 markings on left receiver and front grip strap respectively.


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Figure 2. Three abortive attempts to mark P.M. on the rear and right side of 3082h. From left to right , there is a “P” attempt on rear of frame, on right side ramp of frame, and on right side of receiver anterior to ejector. These stamps are shown in the following three figures.


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Figure 3. An attempt to place an inverted “P” on rear of frame. Whoops, bad placement.


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Figure 4. Perhaps the next stamp was on the right ramp area. Shallow “P” as ramp hardening may make this place a poor choice for good stamp penetration.


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Figure 5.Good stamp placement and depth on right receiver flats anterior to ejector, but a rather horrible triple bounce result.


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Figure 6. The final nice P.D.471 marking on the left receiver flats. One could interpret the three abortive “P stamp” attempts to represent the education of a neophyte armorer, trying out various flat areas on the frame/receiver to place the P.D. and number. If so, the absence of direction/supervision for this unskilled worker pounding away on this police gun seems rather bizarre. On the other hand, was this a demonstration performed by an experienced armorer/stamper? He showed three stamping errors i.e. poor placement, avoid hardened areas, bouncing is bad. At least during this perplexing “trial and error” process there was no detectable bending of the frame/receiver.

The next question is the meaning of the “D” of the P.D. marking. Probably “D” refers to the town of police school location, in a manner similar to other police school names. "P.D." is not mentioned in the list of P08 marked police schools on page 197 Weimar Lugers or page 93 of Gortz/Bryans. However P.D. would not appear to be a small school, if there were at least 470 other P08/weapons in this P.D. unit.


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Figure 7.The final front grip strap marking apparently applied after crossing out the P.D.471 marking. The last question is what is the meaning of the Br.2040. Any identification or other observations of this mark?


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Figure 8.The matching police #2 mag retained by P08 3082h. This mag is a type 4 (page 172,TRLugers) with HS patent marked blue body and eagle/C stamped aluminum bottom retained by a convex center pin.

John
 

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I'm guessing that P.D.translates as "Politzi Direktion". Br is the code for Breslau, according to my list of 1932 codes. The marking would then translate as "Politzi Direktiron Breslau" or "Breslau Police Administration, Weapon # 2040", I believe. P.D. is not a listed Police School code in my text. Ref: German Small Arms Markings; Joacham Gortz & Don L. Bryans, 1997. Hopefuly this helps.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Thanks Sauer, for your "Politzi Direktion" translationof P.D. I have not had that much exposure to police markings and am not familiar with "Politzi Direktion". Can you explain how this unit fits into the police system or its function?
John
 

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Hello jcoe,

first, to correct a minor spelling error, it is "Polizei-Direktion", sometimes also written in two words "Polizei Direktion".

I would agree with the guess of sauer that your gun has been used by the police force of Breslau, it seems most logically, but so far there is no proof about that, especially with the police marks the rules of marking were not followed very precise.

A "Polizei-Direktion" is a higher level of command in the organisation of the police forces, covering a wider geographical area. The police-stations or precincts were not directly under command of the ministry of internal affairs. Depending on the size of the state, the state has been divided in "Direktionen" (= regional level) and "Inspektionen" (= sub-regional level), while these again were divided in "Reviere" (= stations/precincts) and "Posten" (= posts). The number of all of these varies and has been changed frequently due to changes in the organisational structure of the police force.

Hope I could help with a little explanation, best regards,

Andy
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks Andy for your "Polizei-Direktion", "Polizei Direktion" clarification. It would appear that this is not a small unit and one would expect that more P.D. marked P08s would have been reported and "P.D." recognized/listed as a police entity.Any more sightings of "P.D." out there?
John
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Donmaus, Thanks for the new P.D. example.
Villiers, I am curious how you decide which town would be most appropriate to be referenced as “Br”. Is it size, location or some other factor? I can’t even locate these places on my admittedly inadequate maps.
John
 

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Sorry for not answering sooner .. was away from home again. Larger towns that were (and still are) the seat of local government would all have had (and still do have) police training facilities of various kinds. Germany is a federal state and had a diversified local and provincial government before the outset of WWII. So it would be hard to tell which of these towns and cities if referred to by a specific stamp. Unless, of course there´s only one. But "Br" could be one of many. What is really needed is the co-operation of one or more of the German groups interested in police history. Without detailed documentation, any attempt at identification would seem to me to be no more than educated guesswork.

Patrick
 

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Here is a link to a site I found that contains a lot of information about Weimar Germany, including very useful maps of all the states, provinces, etc. I would like to hear what our German members or other experts on Weimar Germany think of it.

http://www.gonschior.de/weimar/Deutschland/index.htm
 
G

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This link, mentioned above, is a link to a very, very good description about several Germany historical facts. I am a person from the Netherlands, but the German border is very close...about a 40 miles from the place, that I am living.
Anyway, I have red the mentioned articles from the link, and my opinion is, Don, that even for our schools, it is a good lesson Germany historical facts, during the period 1920-1934.
Thanks, Don, very interesting to read!!
Aldo
 
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