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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I posted this thread about 2 months a go, but had no pictures at the time. I finally had chance to re-visit this person and took pictures for you to analyze.

Here is original thread:

"Hi forum members,
I have question about value for very interesting Luger.

I know gentleman here in metro that has BYF 41 Luger military police conversion with the added sear safety as shown in Jan Stills book on page 109 I think. Notthe gun pictured, just one like it.
It has authentic bakelite black widow grips, eagle C period correct mag ( notmatching) and FXO mag(not matching).
Also JOS 41 military holster with a e655 loading tool.

Condition is very nice, but not matching mags.

There is no any information about value in Blue Book - not to many pictures orinfo at all about this variation online.

He is asking $4500 for that nice piece... is it really worth $4500? or since isso rare maybe more?

Please advice , I don't know if to buy it or not for that money.

I am looking forward to hear from you.

Thank you in advance for any help.

Michael "


Thank you in advance. SAM_4125.jpg SAM_4139.jpg SAM_4138.jpg SAM_4137.jpg SAM_4136.jpg SAM_4135.jpg SAM_4134.jpg SAM_4133.jpg SAM_4132.jpg SAM_4131.jpg SAM_4130.jpg SAM_4129.jpg SAM_4128.jpg SAM_4127.jpg SAM_4126.jpg
 

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The photo of the byf 41 police luger is frontispiece B in Jan Still's Third Reich Lugers, with the text on page 66. Jan reports in the book that at the time of release of his book, four byf 41 police lugers in the "o' and "p" range had been reported. It was estimated that 200 of these lugers were procured by the German police. Your byf 41 has a serial number of 1210 "z" which would make it the fifth reported, provided that no others were reported in the meantime. This piece is also in a different suffix range. The $4500 asking price seems a little steep to me, what with no matching magazine but may be worth it to a serious collector looking for a rare piece.
 

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I'm a little surprised this is the first byf 41 police in the z series!

Joop and Don announces series o, p and t.

Beware of fake! It is easy to add the security room on a normal byf!

Some photos, 2050 p:


Mauser 41 byf police n° 2050 p  01.jpg Mauser 41 byf police n° 2050 p  02.jpg Mauser 41 byf police n° 2050 p  04.jpg Mauser 41 byf police n° 2050 p  08.jpg Mauser 41 byf police n° 2050 p  05.jpg
 

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I do not like the spring Schiwy Sicherung, as I do not like the pin that secures the spring to the fork.
The spring is too much thick, the head of the pin is irregular beat.
Saluti
Giuliano
 

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I would like to see pictures of the sear safety from right above to underneath and the sideplate cut out.

This is 3rd hand - but I know that a well known collector was visiting a gunsmith after Jans Weimar Lugers came out and saw about 20 (+/-) lugers that were having sear safetys installed. Like I said it is 3rd hand, but I have heard the story a couple of times, point is that as said, it is easy to fake a police by adding a sear safety. And by the byf time period, not many had the sear safety installed, you actually find them cut and no sear safety at all!

So, hard to say. Did you purchase it?
 

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Michael, now that the issue of possibly just adding a sear safety to an otherwise "normal" byf 41, to make it a rare police gun, begs more photographs of the sear safety area,including the cut in the top of the side plate. Although no byf 41 police lugers in the "z" series have been reported before, this puts the onus on you provide more photos as this pistol's asking price is no "chunk of change".
 

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First, Kri1942, thanks for the photos of a Banner with a factory attached sear safety. Take note of the shape of the rounded (derby) shape of the top of the pin that secures the sear safety to the receiver. And note that it is blued..unmessed with! Now note the shape of the pin on the byf. See any difference? It's flat and the bluing is messed with. Yes, I believe you will note the differences. It is obvious to me that the sear safety was not factory applied. Next, are we sure that is a Z suffix? I believe it is, but let's make sure. I believe the shape of these suffix letters are noted in several reference books. Just my opinions... Jim
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I did not purchased it yet. I want to make sure that this pistol is legit and not just another fake beauty.
I am waiting for additional photos as you requested - I am hoping to get them soon and will post once I got it.

Thank you for all comments - any other suggestions about that pistol?

Michael
 

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Another check would be to see if the sear safety functions property. With the sideplate off the pin on the end of the sear safety should drop into the hole in the sear bar. See post #4 above and Giualfi photo. You can see the hole in the sear bar. The plunger and spring have to be removed from the sear bar to drill the hole. Something a faker may not do correctly.
PS. Jim I believe a correct sear safety rivet should be in the white, not blued.
 

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well, I have looked at scores of police lugers - even had one with what I felt was a correct brass pin - but tended to agree that brass would not stand up to the beating.

That said, the rivet is steel, the top is rounded and some tool was used to put it in by keeping the top rounded and the bottom was either pressed or peened. The top part should be in the white and the trick most bad guys do not get right is that the bottom of the rivet is in the white, usually this is missed when the gun has been dipped or reblued.

The sear safety's themself that I have seen and have several of them are thin but springy.

They were required after 1934 (approx) and then were phased out - so later ones are usually not there, but the hole is there.

Personally I believe they were installed at the Police Armory at Berlin - there is no evidence that states this directly, except that older guns pre-WW2 were retrofitted and I think they were done by Berlin, as you see barrels with the TP on them (or Simson 9mm (E6) put onto 7.65mm Lugers from DWM)

Ed
 

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Considering the end of the o block and beginning of the p block as the point where the known examples exist, (excluding the t block gun for the moment) at 10,000 guns per run assuming all of the p block to the start of the z block there is a 100,000 gun gap between this gun and the known examples. (40,000 for the t block gun). If production rates were at 10k per month that puts nearly a year between examples. So the question I would ask is, "If the order was for 200 police guns, why would it take a year to fill such a small order?"

The discrepancies with the look of the sear safety is something in itself, the byf 41 posted by JG (post 3) has a clean looking safety installed. All combined the case for being legitimate does not look good.

One last thing to consider....if all is right with the side plate and the rest of the safety, could this be a legitimate (although seemingly late) gun that had the spring removed at some point, then replaced to fill the hole(s) and make the gun "correct" again? JB
 

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Tharpo, you are probably correct about the pin being in the white. I'm sure though I have seen them blued.

Ed, please show us some confirmation that the sear safeties were mounted on the police accepted (at the factory acceptance) Banners in Berlin. It still is my opinion the added sear-safeties were mounted to the receivers at Oberndorf by Mauser. There were just too many thousands of the police Banners that had the added sear-safeties, and I don't believe the Technische Polizei department in Berlin could have handled that quantity. Just my opinion.......Jim
 

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I inspected a 1939 Eagle K police accepted Banner today that has a blued pin holding the sear safety on the receiver.......jim
 

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Bottom line, if you buy it, you will have to forever explain why you think it is correct. Better to find another that fits all the normal aspects.
 
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