[Pancho]

Hello Men,

There is an interesting "debate" going on at the PP/PPK forum, regarding the validity of a PL holster, ie. fake, or not fake. The relevant postings begin on Dec. 7. (They also refer to a posting on our forum.)

The holster at issue on the PP/PPK forum was for sale at Gunsamerica, item ##976527989, but seems to have been removed.

I've wanted a PL holster for some time, and have always been wary, but this debate has heightened my paranoia re. handing out big bucks for a popularly faked item.

I was wondering if any us had been following their discussion, and would have any opinions as to the validity of that holster?

Here's a link to their debate:
http://forums.p38forum.com/scripts/pp-k/pp-k.pl?read=8318

A tip: The site is kind of funny in how it arranges the postings. Sometimes when you click on one that has the earliest date of the group, it will turn up others that have an even earlier date.

Pancho

PS. I don't mean to start any trouble. Their debate seems to have inspired some keyboard fisticufs. Remember, it's Christmas. All brawls should be reserved for the new year.

 

[huggiebear]

You asked for a yes or no answer as to whether the holster was real or not ? Your answer is YES , it is real.

 

[Lloyd in Vegas]

Pancho,

I am with John on this one-I believe it is real! I have known the dealer/collector selling it for years. I don't think he would knowingly sell anything that was faked. I have visited with him before at the Las Vegas Antique Arms how and he seems to be honest, forthright and generally a pretty good guy. I think he got a "bum rap" on the PP/PPK forum! Here is the PL holster under review/scrutiny

http://www.adamsguns.com/1340.jpg

 

[Guest]

Fellow Walther Collectors,

Sometimes debates can become rather 'hot' regarding items which are being offered for sale by collectors and dealers who have been around for a every long time.

I do not to wish to 'stir the pot' regarding the PL holster which is being questioned, but I would like to highlight a few points:

1) Based on discussions which I have had with Walther PP/PPK experts, the strap of the PL holster should be folded over. The reason for the fold is to prevent the strap from covering the swastika which is very logical. Why would AKAH change the design of the strap?;

2) I have seen documented FACT of this specific detail from two ORIGINAL AKAH catalogs from 1937 and 1940 which I saw in Europe. Both catalogs show the strap being folded over;

3) I am attaching an image of a PL holster which belongs to friend in Europe which is ABSOLUTELY GENUINE and its provenance is real. My friend also has the original PL PPK manual (red color) which came with his pistol and this rig is not a 'put together'.

Download Attachment: A Genuine Party Leader Holster.jpg
69.49KB

Download Attachment: A Genuine Party Leader Holster - Eagle.jpg
75.62KB

Download Attachment: Manual-for-PL-PPK.jpg
44.14KB

I hope that collectors will research data more thoroughly instead of relying on unsubstantiated facts.

Best wishes,
Albert

 

[huggiebear]

Remenber, respect your fellow collectors.
Jan

 

[Guest]

Hello John,

I am not claiming to be an expert with all holsters, but I am only explaining what I have specifically seen and researched from actual factory catalogs, documents and surviving specimens that are correct. As I learn more about certain holsters (learning has no limits), I shall modify my opinion/views accordingly. On the other hand, I would be grateful if you could provide some literature or photographs to me (as well as other collectors on this forum) that list the other manufacturers of PL holsters and how they are marked as well as their characteristics. I admire and congratulate you on the high quality of the holsters in your collection (some of which you have posted on this forum which appear to be genuine), but it is normal for collectors to express their views and opinions without provoking offense remarks.

By stating to me 'do yourself a favor and learn something instead of talking about which you know little', firstly, you cannot knock down what I have mentioned regarding the correct features of a genuine (PPK) PL holster. Secondly, your remark is a little rough, but I take no offense - I am very satisfied with the track I am taking to learn more knowledge and I have been on the same track for over 20 years. Thirdly, on the PPK Forum, Bob recently mentioned that he believes that his PL holster might be for a PP pistol (or maybe both, PP and PPK) instead of only for a PPK pistol. I would like to hear what other Walther collectors have to say about the existence of a PL holster for a PP pistol. I would also like to see a Walther PP pistol that was actually issued to a PL member - that would be interesting indeed. If I assume that such a PP pistol exists for such a holster, would this pistol have PL grips (I don't think so), or would it only have a 'RZM' proof since I have heard that PL pistols can be issued with or without the PL grips as well as only having the RZM proof stamped on the slide? I would like to hear your comments on this combination which might be unfamiliar to many of us.

Best wishes,
Albert

 

[mouser]

Dear Mr.James:
I would like to second Albert's comments...and pose yet another question:
If there was another manufacture of PL holsters, besides AKAH - how would we tell the difference between those PL holsters(with unfolded pointed strap) and the fake holsters that have the Eagle/swastika apllied to a regular original unmarked PP/PPK holster, assuming that the stamp was identical in every way to the original PL stamp?

Val

 

[sauerfan]

quote:the strap of the PL holster should be folded over. The reason for the fold is to prevent the strap from covering the swastika which is very logical. Why would AKAH change the design of the strap?;

Albert,

the answer on your question is given in the AKAH catalog No. 175 of 1940, page 271 of which a copy is shown here



Download Attachment: Akah_catalog175_1940-p271_Partyholsters_forum.jpg
296.61KB


Excuse the bad quality of the scan – but it was necessary to bring it down under 300kB. I can ensure you, that the PL holster shown in the original catalog has the quality of a photo – not a drawing. Anyway: the interesting portion in the description of catalog # 2084/PL is the following:


"(…) die Knopfschlaufe ist oben umgenäht um ein Abgleiten des Daumens beim Oeffnen zu verhindern (...)"

Translation (or, a try for a translation)

"the strap is folded over to prevent slip off (over?) of the thumb during opening of the holster"

just a hunch: this technical feature probably was object of the DRGM Akah was referring to. At least, this would explain, why only Akah was using this feature – and no other German holster maker. But – of course – this does not explain, why the folded over strap only can be found on Akah party holsters.


Regards

Martin

 

[Guest]

Hello Martin,

Thank you for the information from your 1940 AKAH catalog which provides additional useful information regarding the PL holsters. While some collectors believe that other makers produced PL holsters, so far no one has provided the actual name of another holster maker making PL holsters or some proof of literature to backup their opinion. Why would a strict regulatory agency during the Third Reich permit/allow PL holsters to be designed in two different patterns? How come we find more PL holsters made by AKAH as compared to other holster makers?

Thank you for your input to this topic.

Albert

 

[Guest]

I have a PP party leader holster almost identical to the one at issue. First i would like to say that i am not a dealer, the holster is not for sale, i paid $75. for it from a militaria dealer 10 years ago, the holster doesnt eat anything so i share this info with you with no personal gain in mind.
The holster I have also has a rounded end on the closure strap.The stitching appears to have an oranje tint and does not glow under a black light. There is no maker mark any where however it is stamped along the inside edge with the RZM logo followed by the letters L2/134/41 (last two numbers barely legible could be 44 or 54 or 51) Dont know how to send a pic to this sight but could probably email one. As far as a maker i was told that sometimes a maker can be found thru the RZM info, but i am no expert. Hope this info is of some value to you advanced collectors.

 

[lugerholsterrepair]

Gentlemen all, It is my opinion that this strap may very well be the original one that came with this PL holster but that it has been shortened from it's original configuration. You can see the lines along the edges go off and do not follow the curvature of the strap.
The curved end is a stubby badly cut end, not at all like the ends on many small German auto holsters. I suspect the strap was originally folded over which is proper for PL and SA holsters. The stitching probably seperated and rather than deal with the flapping loose end it was cut as you see it now.
This is pure speculation from one who has seen this before...
Cappi...If you could possibly find a way to post a photo it would shine some light. Jerry Burney

 

[Edward Tinker]

Peter it is much better to start your own posting / thread, rather than reply to a posting that is almost a year and a half old.


Ed
Administrator

 

[lugerholsterrepair]

Actually Ed, I respectfully disagree. A continuation of this thread enables one to reference the material. I was able to look at the holster in question and the photo's Albert provided. A new thread would have hidden all the details I used to make my opinion.
Jerry Burney

 

[Edward Tinker]

maybe but there are huge advantages to starting your own thread. E-mails can be sent to you as the originator, and you know the replies deal with you and Not Pancho who started the thread (if you subscribe to the thread). It is much cleaner and easier to see through the thread, further, every time some one says they have something Just like it, well, I'd rather see pictures of their item, because nothing is just like your item.

Further, referencing from above, since he stated his is "like" it, so again, you have to rely on an assumption and not the actual item they have. I don't mean that bad, but a new thread is much easier as an admin to change or move if needed, and when it is something not just the same, almost impossible to move on this forum.

Further, this isn't a huge deal, but starting their own thread is much better in the long run, for searching and seeing at a glance what threads consist of.

Ed

 

[lugerholsterrepair]

Ed, It is good for me.....As administrator you have problems I never heard of! Thanks for the great job. Jerry Burney