Please don’t buy things that you need to explain

5637 Views 172 Replies 16 Participants Last post by johnboy, 2 mo ago

Jason S L

Discussion Starter · 3 mo ago

20

I have moved out of anyones comfort zone and bought a bad investment 😊. I don’t really care , because I find it fascinating. For all the reasons it shouldn’t exist , I can’t connect the dots to prove it’s bad ( yet) . So here it is and it’s mine , 😆
For better or worse

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1 - 17 of 173 Posts

johnboy

· #22 · 3 mo ago

It's out of Ralph's shop of horrors. If you have a big enough pile of mis-matched and matching poor condition mausers you can make a lot of stuff.

So far this year a "matching" 42/42 a "matching" BW franken luger a day ago and now this. All matching, all good at first glance.

This stuff will be oozing out into the light for awhile I'm afraid.

There are police banners in the y block but they won't have military acceptances.

johnboy

· #28 · 3 mo ago

What did you pay for it?

johnboy

· #50 · 3 mo ago

I looked at the listing last night 😁

Still wrapping my head around this, In summary. Jim states it's a Banner receiver, but it's military proofed, other examples near this one do NOT have P08 on the frame. This one does. The side plate is bad, the toggle is bad. But some people think it's "mostly Ok" and we shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water.

I still think it was Ralph's

Reactions: 1

johnboy

· #96 · 3 mo ago

First, back when whomever (Ralph) made this gun, a Banner police was worth way more than a "BW" which is all it was. Second, if you have a pile of lugers to shuffle parts from this is no stretch for someone capable of making a '45 HK or a .45 acp carbine for example.

As for the why? Let's say you have a pile of 100+ mismatched or problem lugers along with 200+ good ones to sell. You start with the most complete guns and force them into "matching" examples so the pile to sell (and your bank account) gets bigger and the salvage pile gets smaller. As you work through the pile you realize you have guns that with a little work can "become" a more valuable variant. Say for example a byf upper and an S/42 y block frame with the same last three digits in serial that can be forced into a matching y block 42 Banner police. Viola!

The parts gun pile was sorted by 1. Same serial # guns together, 2. then the last 3 matching, 3. then the last 2 matching. Last two matching gets a lot of stuff "matching" quickly, but leaves you with frames & uppers to alter into whole guns of your choosing.

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johnboy

· #102 · 3 mo ago

The #8 punch used was struck hard enough to leave a dent from the flat on the barrel. It almost looks like a 3 was covered on the frame. Could actually be a y block frame with the same last three as the receiver to start with. Were assuming the 8 was overstruck on a matching byf with all the first digits being a 6

It's starting to feel like the frame and upper were from two guns, possibly the barrel came from the frame donor gun NOT the receiver donor gun.

johnboy

· #104 · 3 mo ago

Also, the two five and four on the barrel all have halos

johnboy

· #106 · 3 mo ago

y block frames occur in 37' and '39 This would mean 18 possible donor frames to 9 donor uppers with the same last three in the serial as a starting point.

If you own the junkyard you can make some cars.

johnboy

· #114 · 3 mo ago

phila said:
yes but the only y block marked P.08 was the byf 41 frames and some y block Banner frames. One can always say that the P.08 was added to a 37 or 39 frame but that claim requires evidence. IMO the fakes and restorations done back in the 50s-80s and maybe even 90s were generally not up to a detail of exactness to pass muster today with knowledgeable collectors. Not so much as being non textbook as in the case of this Luger but rather in the metal prep textures and exactness of the finishes used. Lots and lots if not all restorations are slightly overdone and there is almost no way to prevent it.

If you add 41 that's 27 possible donor frames 9 of which have p08 on them already. If you're remarking stuff p08 is nothing. You can dip-strip and salt bath a gun with added markings with zero metal prep and have all the original tool marks intact btw.

johnboy

· #115 · 3 mo ago

The y could have been added to a ns gun easily enough also.

johnboy

· #121 · 3 mo ago

Jason S L said:
No suffix would have bore guage

Should have said frame, not gun. My current rabbit hole has the frame, upper and barrel a mix. Even if the barrel and receiver started together the barrel has nothing to do with the frame suffix.

johnboy

· #123 · 3 mo ago

Just postulating. My dad used to say "there's more than one way to skin a cat" it can be your coffee table gun.

Reactions: 1

johnboy

· #150 · 3 mo ago

Jason S L said:
I am still confused by my gun , it’s excellent work

If Ralph can make an entire '45 HK from scratch a little police banner would be pretty easy. Mhassoun just posted his (Lugerman) 45acp up. Look at the finish on that gun. There's nothing stopping someone that can do quality bluing from assembling any "variant" they want to out of donor guns. Number it, add eagle L, add Banner link, strip it and toss it in the hot salt vat. 25 or 30 years later people swear the finish is original.

johnboy

· #152 · 3 mo ago

Jason S L said:
I’m not convinced my gun isn’t real ….. how is that 😉

It's like the more you look at it the more you overlook it's flaws. Maybe you even convince yourself it's OK. You know it's not right in your heart but you love it anyhow and justify it's condition.

Like being involved with a beautiful woman that's crazy & mean. Your friends are like "she's messed up" and you're like "yeah, but just look at her"

Reactions: 2

johnboy

· #158 · 3 mo ago

Jason S L said:
It’s a real mystery, the toggle is definitely bad, but I really I’m having a hard time detecting any signs of bluing touchup. I certainly can measure the toggle, but I plan on replacing it with a mismatch authentic banner for personal satisfaction

You won't be happy............leave it as is.

Reactions: 1

johnboy

· #165 · 2 mo ago

mrerick said:
The E/N is on the breech block, not on the center toggle.

That's one of the sticking points. It should be an eagle n but it's not. It's a military test proof.

johnboy

· #167 · 2 mo ago

Vlim said:
So? A toggle consists of 3 parts, of which only one part, the breech block, must legally be proofed. Says nothing about the center or rear toggle parts.

So would a complete Banner toggle train have a military acceptance or a commercial acceptance on it?
Or perhaps the better question would be; Do the other known Banners with military proofed receivers with serials close to this one have military proofed breech blocks in their toggle trains?

I think this gun is a regular military byf, made a minimum of 2000 units before the serial it's wearing now (if it isn't made up of more than one luger). With altered serials, an added sear safety and an added (incorrect) Banner center toggle link. To create the appearance of a Late war Banner police.

Coolest, most expensive shooter ever? Yes

Reactions: 1

johnboy

· #173 · 2 mo ago

4

Here's some good ones

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1 - 17 of 173 Posts

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