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Please don’t buy things that you need to explain

5631 Views 172 Replies 16 Participants Last post by  johnboy, 
Jason S L
20
I have moved out of anyones comfort zone and bought a bad investment 😊. I don’t really care , because I find it fascinating. For all the reasons it shouldn’t exist , I can’t connect the dots to prove it’s bad ( yet) . So here it is and it’s mine , 😆
For better or worse
Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Wood

Air gun Gun barrel Trigger Gun accessory Revolver

Bicycle part Tire Auto part Synthetic rubber Sports equipment

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Air gun Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory Revolver

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Air gun Musical instrument accessory Trigger Gun barrel Gun accessory

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Jason S L
Just coming up with a ridiculous theory which of course we all know is absolutely stupid but if the gun had to go to And be converted to police where would that be done? Would it be done at Mauser or at a police armory?
I actually asked this question today during our meeting, but we didn’t really have any other World War II Luger guys on to confirm what was going on in 1942 . We needed @Vlim but he was motoring 😊
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johnboy
It's out of Ralph's shop of horrors. If you have a big enough pile of mis-matched and matching poor condition mausers you can make a lot of stuff.

So far this year a "matching" 42/42 a "matching" BW franken luger a day ago and now this. All matching, all good at first glance.

This stuff will be oozing out into the light for awhile I'm afraid.

There are police banners in the y block but they won't have military acceptances.
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Jason S L
johnboy said:
It's out of Ralph's shop of horrors. If you have a big enough pile of mis-matched and matching poor condition mausers you can make a lot of stuff.

So far this year a "matching" 42/42 a "matching" BW franken luger a day ago and now this. All matching, all good at first glance.

This stuff will be oozing out into the light for awhile I'm afraid.

There are police banners in the y block but they won't have military acceptances.
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The matching 42-42 is mine 😆
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Jason S L
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johnboy said:
It's out of Ralph's shop of horrors. If you have a big enough pile of mis-matched and matching poor condition mausers you can make a lot of stuff.

So far this year a "matching" 42/42 a "matching" BW franken luger a day ago and now this. All matching, all good at first glance.

This stuff will be oozing out into the light for awhile I'm afraid.

There are police banners in the y block but they won't have military acceptances.
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First of all it’s in the proper serial block for 1942 police Lugers 8001y- 9194y this is 8254y

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There is 7927y that is E/655, E/655
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Jason S L
So it seems there were 643 military guns with sear safety , I can’t account for the toggle
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Jason S L
Here is side by side comparison with my 1942 commercial on left . You can clearly see the “humped” toggle is the earlier style cut .

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Jason S L
I also have no issue disclosing this one came from Simpsons . I have been watching it and wanting it for about four months. When the gun I bought the other day turned out to be a dud this was my second choice. It appears I may have two duds 😆
I like this one though
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johnboy
What did you pay for it?
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Jason S L
johnboy said:
What did you pay for it?
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johnboy said:
What did you pay for it?
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it was expensive. I like it, I don’t know when it was fitted with the Sear safety, but my guess is it was done at a police depot in theater. The proper serial number range and suffix are strong evidence for me and the gun really ooze’s original. As I said not a safe choice but when you get really into it you look for interesting pieces .
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M
I don’t think it’s a fake.
There is no reason to fake anything like this.
The middle toggle logo and the serial do raise questions, but the rest looks perfectly fine from the standpoint of fonts and machine marks. My guess would be a legit late war factory/depot put together gun pressed into police service.
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RyanE
Jason S L said:
it was expensive. I like it, I don’t know when it was fitted with the Sear safety, but my guess is it was done at a police depot in theater. The proper serial number range and suffix are strong evidence for me and the gun really ooze’s original. As I said not a safe choice but when you get really into it you look for interesting pieces .
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It is your money, so you can set it on fire if you want to, but this gun is absolutely not original. Simpsons sold you a fake. No question about it.

Any competent machinist could make those police mods, they are not complicated. And as I said, I strongly suspect the frame has been messed with also.

mouser said:
The middle toggle logo and the serial do raise questions, but the rest looks perfectly fine from the standpoint of fonts and machine marks. My guess would be a legit late war factory/depot put together gun pressed into police service.
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The toggle is a fake. Period. And the OrPo depot in Berlin did assemble some Lugers out of parts sometime after 1942, but they look nothing like this.
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Jason S L
Toggle is spooky , but I like the rest
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Jason S L
Another expensive shooter 😆
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Jason S L
Saturday night 😆😆😆😆😆
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J
Jason, interestingly, I have 8248y and 8253y noted in my database. They are 42 (2 digit) dated Banners with Eagle N proofing on the left receiver and breechblock and have NO P.08 on the frame. In fact, from 8012y to 8280y none of these Banners have P.08 on their frames. There are known 42 (2 digit) Banners that have 655 proofed barrels. 655 acceptance on the right side of the receiver would probably indicate a 42 dated receiver was accepted by the military. The sideplate causes me more pain than anything. The internal numbers are not correct as you know. I could live with the sear-safety addition after it was made into a police pistol with the Eagle L added to the left side because the right side of the receiver was "full" of military acceptance. It is a late-produced/accepted Luger as you know. The y range was strickly for Banners...4 digit and 2 digit. The Su4 (Spandau) marked mag probably added after-the-fact. Why I don't know, but probably to add mystery to the pistol. I doubt Spandau had anything to do with the pistol. It would be a hard pistol to sell later because few would try to understand the situation or time frame it was produced. But at the present time, it would be a pleasure to own and try to determine more about it. JIM
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Jason S L
jps-s said:
Jason, interestingly, I have 8248y and 8253y noted in my database. They are 42 (2 digit) dated Banners with Eagle N proofing on the left receiver and breechblock and have NO P.08 on the frame. In fact, from 8012y to 8280y none of these Banners have P.08 on their frames. There are known 42 (2 digit) Banners that have 655 proofed barrels. 655 acceptance on the right side of the receiver would probably indicate a 42 dated receiver was accepted by the military. The sideplate causes me more pain than anything. The internal numbers are not correct as you know. I could live with the sear-safety addition after it was made into a police pistol with the Eagle L added to the left side because the right side of the receiver was "full" of military acceptance. It is a late-produced/accepted Luger as you know. The y range was strickly for Banners...4 digit and 2 digit. The Su4 (Spandau) marked mag probably added after-the-fact. Why I don't know, but probably to add mystery to the pistol. I doubt Spandau had anything to do with the pistol. It would be a hard pistol to sell later because few would try to understand the situation or time frame it was produced. But at the present time, it would be a pleasure to own and try to determine more about it. JIM
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Awesome info ,thanks
My 42 Banner commercial has the P.08 on frame but it’s in the W block , totally irrelevant but interesting 😊
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J
Jason, I think the key to solving the 42 dated receiver with the 655 barrel and 135 receiver is really interesting because the 4 used in the 42 date is that of a 2 digit Banner and not a 42 byf. In case you did not know the 4s are completely different in the 42 byfs and the 42 Banners. Most students do not know that, but it is very true. Some Banner students of the past have considered the Banners were made on a completely different production line as compared to the byfs. That may have been true, but the fact the 4s are different adds some credibility to it. However, the 42 dated receiver you have posted is, in fact, one of those dated like the Banners (41 & 42 two digit Banners). So, you have a 42 dated Banner receiver that was supposed to be a police Banner. The fact the barrel is 655 accepted is not a factor. Even though I have not ever recorded a commercial or police accepted Banner in the y range having the P.08 on the frame isn't really a consideration. I can live comfortably with your 'new' Luger and seeing that the mechanic at Mauser went to the trouble to add the 82 to the inside of the arm on the sideplate tells me he was trying to make it somewhat normal. And as mentioned the Eagle L acceptance had to be added somewhere to add credibility to it being a police weapon, so it was added to the left receiver. Does the breechblock have a 655 or an E/N? I'm guessing it is a 655. Take some photos of the 4s and show them the differences to those interested. We're all still learning, JIM
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Jason S L
jps-s said:
Jason, I think the key to solving the 42 dated receiver with the 655 barrel and 135 receiver is really interesting because the 4 used in the 42 date is that of a 2 digit Banner and not a 42 byf. In case you did not know the 4s are completely different in the 42 byfs and the 42 Banners. Most students do not know that, but it is very true. Some Banner students of the past have considered the Banners were made on a completely different production line as compared to the byfs. That may have been true, but the fact the 4s are different adds some credibility to it. However, the 42 dated receiver you have posted is, in fact, one of those dated like the Banners (41 & 42 two digit Banners). So, you have a 42 dated Banner receiver that was supposed to be a police Banner. The fact the barrel is 655 accepted is not a factor. Even though I have not ever recorded a commercial or police accepted Banner in the y range having the P.08 on the frame isn't really a consideration. I can live comfortably with your 'new' Luger and seeing that the mechanic at Mauser went to the trouble to add the 82 to the inside of the arm on the sideplate tells me he was trying to make it somewhat normal. And as mentioned the Eagle L acceptance had to be added somewhere to add credibility to it being a police weapon, so it was added to the left receiver. Does the breechblock have a 655 or an E/N? I'm guessing it is a 655. Take some photos of the 4s and show them the differences to those interested. We're all still learning, JIM
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Jim , will work on your requests. To clarify the barrel has E/135 acceptance stamp , no barrel guage/ bore diameter, but is serial stamped . The breech block has the LTP army proof which is why we are having issue with the commercial toggle
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Jason S L
So the left receiver is the “police” gun with army acceptance stamps , the receiver on the right is a commercial banner . Interesting that all the finishing marks under the blue are similar. I definitely see a difference in the 4’s
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Vlim
In my opinion the pistol is mostly ok. I think what we see is an attempt at 'bettering out' a broken or mismatched toggle by repairing or replacing the banner and number after filing down the original surface and markings.

I don't think it was done to deceive, just some attempt at restoring a damaged toggle.

So, a fake? No. A poor restoration? Yes.

I think the phrase 'fake' has been used too easily and too casually in the last few years.

There are many, many levels between original and fake. Let's try not to crucify everything but look at them from a more realistic and less condemning viewpoint.
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