[Jason S L]

The serial number assigned would put this in the upper range of 1942 police. Almost at the very end which would make us think that it could be an accumulation of extra parts. I can accept that but I can’t accept the military firing proof on the breech block without the entire toggle train being military

 

[johnboy]

The #8 punch used was struck hard enough to leave a dent from the flat on the barrel. It almost looks like a 3 was covered on the frame. Could actually be a y block frame with the same last three as the receiver to start with. Were assuming the 8 was overstruck on a matching byf with all the first digits being a 6

It's starting to feel like the frame and upper were from two guns, possibly the barrel came from the frame donor gun NOT the receiver donor gun.

 

[phila]

not to beat a dead horse, but one of my good friends yesterday told me I should get a banner toggle to correct the gun and make it right. But that doesn’t make any sense to me because this gun should have a byf toggle. It’s not a banner

The problem with saying that as well as Johnboys explanation about this one simply being a byf boosted with a banner center link is that this does not account for a “y” block suffix frame from well back into 1941 (IF byf origin) being used on a 1942 build. The entire police aspect of this gun is very interesting and may offer a clue as to why it is as it is but for the moment let’s forget that and try to figure out how of if a y block 42 Banner ended up accepted and fire proofed by the “army” or how a byf 42 ended up with a frame from about 30-40 thousand guns earlier than the first 42 dated receivers were dated

 

[johnboy]

Also, the two five and four on the barrel all have halos

 

[phila]

The #8 punch used was struck hard enough to leave a dent from the flat on the barrel. It almost looks like a 3 was covered on the frame. Could actually be a y block frame with the same last three as the receiver to start with. Were assuming the 8 was overstruck on a matching byf with all the first digits being a 6

It's starting to feel like the frame and upper were from two guns, possibly the barrel came from the frame donor gun NOT the receiver donor gun.

Sorry my last post was made before this one of yours posted so I was addressing your post previous to this one but I think this post describes something much more likely

 

[johnboy]

y block frames occur in 37' and '39 This would mean 18 possible donor frames to 9 donor uppers with the same last three in the serial as a starting point.

If you own the junkyard you can make some cars.

 

[jps-s]

Jason, your line-up of the 42 dated receivers is interesting. The receiver on the far left is a byf receiver. With your photography being excellent, I have changed my mind. At first, I suggested it was a Banner receiver, but it is not.
The other three shown are correctly described. I'm with Vlim regarding what happened to this Luger. It was made to function and as far a Mauser corporate was concerned, the rest didn't matter. Maybe it ended up in some police department and had the sear safety added. It would appear so. The funky grips are not correct, as has been mentioned. Where and when the Su4 mag came on the scene is another unknown. Send it back, or shoot it. It won't hurt to take it to the range and enjoy it. Best, Jim

 

[Jason S L]

Is the blueing on the toggle identical to the rest of the gun?

that’s not where I’m having issues . The banner logo on the toggle is too small and it appears force matched serial. And it’s the pre spring 1941 toggle cut . And it’s attached to army breech block . Center is the gun we are analyzing

 

[Jason S L]

y block frames occur in 37' and '39 This would mean 18 possible donor frames to 9 donor uppers with the same last three in the serial as a starting point.

If you own the junkyard you can make some cars.

I believe this was one gun , byf 42

 

[phila]

y block frames occur in 37' and '39 This would mean 18 possible donor frames to 9 donor uppers with the same last three in the serial as a starting point.

If you own the junkyard you can make some cars.

yes but the only y block marked P.08 was the byf 41 frames and some y block Banner frames. One can always say that the P.08 was added to a 37 or 39 frame but that claim requires evidence. IMO the fakes and restorations done back in the 50s-80s and maybe even 90s were generally not up to a detail of exactness to pass muster today with knowledgeable collectors. Not so much as being non textbook as in the case of this Luger but rather in the metal prep textures and exactness of the finishes used. Lots and lots if not all restorations are slightly overdone and there is almost no way to prevent it.

 

[phila]

I believe this was one gun , byf 42

What about the y block frame?

 

[4 Scale]

No comment on the pistol, I don't know Banners but this is a fascinating discussion to follow.

... I purchased at a dealer ...They took the bad gun back and gave me a full refund. I spoke with them... they assured me that it was an oversight

I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Oddly, I have had the exact same experience with more than one dealer.

Like you I always thank the dealer. And remember, with gratitude, the experienced collectors who warned that it's better to trust knowledge than reputation.

 

[Vlim]

If you handle large volumes of guns as a dealer, mistakes will happen. It is important how a dealer handles and corrects these mistakes.

 

[johnboy]

yes but the only y block marked P.08 was the byf 41 frames and some y block Banner frames. One can always say that the P.08 was added to a 37 or 39 frame but that claim requires evidence. IMO the fakes and restorations done back in the 50s-80s and maybe even 90s were generally not up to a detail of exactness to pass muster today with knowledgeable collectors. Not so much as being non textbook as in the case of this Luger but rather in the metal prep textures and exactness of the finishes used. Lots and lots if not all restorations are slightly overdone and there is almost no way to prevent it.

If you add 41 that's 27 possible donor frames 9 of which have p08 on them already. If you're remarking stuff p08 is nothing. You can dip-strip and salt bath a gun with added markings with zero metal prep and have all the original tool marks intact btw.

 

[johnboy]

The y could have been added to a ns gun easily enough also.

 

[Jason S L]

The y could have been added to a ns gun easily enough also.

No suffix would have bore guage

 

[Jason S L]

What about the y block frame?

I think the frame was lettered with Y because that puts it in the propper serial range for Banner Police . There is one other gun in Mauser Parabellum with 1941 Chamber date and E/655 proofs in and around this gun . It’s listed in the charts . Obviously have not examined 😆
7927 Y
Notice the 1942 gun with Sear Safety retains its army serial number 768 G

 

[jps-s]

The 8 on the barrel was stamped up-side-down.....perhaps that was a "Mauser mistake", or maybe not. And perhaps the guy numbering the inside of the sideplate picked up the 6 instead of an 8. (Another mistake). With a huge amount of displaced people working in the factories (and at Mauser too). I think lots of mistakes were made especially toward the end of the war.

 

[Jason S L]

The 8 on the barrel was stamped up-side-down.....perhaps that was a "Mauser mistake", or maybe not. And perhaps the guy numbering the inside of the sideplate picked up the 6 instead of an 8. (Another mistake). With a huge amount of displaced people working in the factories (and at Mauser too). I think lots of mistakes were made especially toward the end of the war.

The side plate internal number is a trick not a ton of people know about. I think this is the biggest clue to what has gone on here

 

[Vlim]

The inside number is only interesting on normal P08 HWaA series production and totally irrelevant on the rest.

Stop looking at this gun with P08 contract logic. It wasn't a HWaA contract.