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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm thoroughly confused about the meaning of "R." that I find in some police marks. Generally, the "R" has been x'd out.

On p.196 of Weimar Lugers, it is stated that this stands for Revierhauptmannschaft, a militarized police established in 1921 and disbanded in 1924. This might explain the cancellation of this mark. On the other hand, I can't reconcile my crude attempts to translate this term with this type of organization. Would someone translate it for me?

On p. 91 of German Small Arms Markings, the translation of the 1922 Prussian marking orders includes, "The weapons of the precinct main forces will get the same stamp marks to be followed by 'R' ('Revier')."

Possibly, the difference between these is in the location of the "R" within the mark?

To further complicate things, I recently saw a photo of a definite Schutzpolizei mark with a scriptic "R" just before the weapon number. I am informed that this probably stands for Regierung.

Help, please!
 

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Don, According to Goertz German Small Arms Markings, pg91. Prussian police orders were that the unit mark be followed by "R" ("Revier"). Which means "District". This was later recinded,I believe. So this could be the explaination.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Ron,

I'm still not sure what "...the same stamp marks to be followed by..." means. Does it mean after the unit mark but before the weapon number or after the weapon number? I have seen it in both locations. Unless the police armorers had additional guidance, they may have been as confused as I.
 

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Ron,

"Revier" has two meanings in German, when used in connection with the police. It means "police station", i.e. a building, as well as an area of competence. I guess, the corresponding English/US term would be precinct (?). Usually, a "Revier" is the smallest local unit.

Martin
 

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Don,

a tough nut to crack! First, I searched for "Revierhauptmannschaft" on google. No hits. Are you sure, that this strange word was mentioned in a German source? Anway: the first problem is: where to split up the word? Two possibilities:

1/ Revier – Hauptmann (-schaft) : Precinct – Captain(ship)
2 / Revier – Haupt – Mannschaft : Precinct – main – squad (or team, group, crew)

IF this word does exist, I guess, the second possibility seems to make more sense...

BTW: if you like to have a quick online translation for German words and terms, I do recommend

http://dict.leo.org/?lang=en

A great site!

Regards

Martin
 

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Martin, Thanks for stepping in. My German is very limited. I got the translation from an on-line translator.

Don, The R was to be stamped before the Weapon #, according to the order. However, armorers could have mis-interperated the order.


Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Martin & Ron,

I think we're getting somewhere! The 1922 orders refer to "The weapons of the precinct main forces..." This fits very nicely with Martin's second translation of "Revierhauptmannschaft." I never thought to split it up that way.

The source I'm using for this word is Still's "Weimar Lugers" referenced above and he attributes it to Joe Wotka.

I'm beginning to think that there is no conflict between "Weimar Lugers" and "German Small Arms Markings" on this and that the "precinct main forces" in the 1922 orders were the militarized police Wotka was referring to.

This still leaves me with the question of whether a scriptic "R" refers to something else.
 

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Revier Hauptmannschaft - would mean Precinct Main Force - as stated above. BUT - although R would almost certainly stand for Revier (Precinct), it would seem highly unlikely to be follwed by the word Hauptmannschaft.

Patrick
(Berlin)
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi Patrick! Good to hear from you again.

Purely speculation, but I think that Joe Wotka may have manufactured the term by translating "precinct main force" and then compounding it. "Weimar Lugers" indicates these units were "...militarized police established by the Prussian Minister of Interior, Jan, 1921, to supplement local patrol service in major cities. These were disbanded by orders dated 3-31-1924 (Wotka, 1988)." There must be some documentation somewhere supporting this. It would be interesting to know if it contains the word "Revierhauptmannschaft."

Do you have any ideas about the scriptic version of this? I know very little about Imperial military unit marks but think I have seen this form on some of those weapons.
 

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A Revierhauptmannschaft is a police force of 30-60 Wachtmeister and some detectives and is led by a "Hauptmann" in a Revier or precinct. One precinct was established in smaller towns with a population of approx. 25000. Precincts of 6-10 were combined to a Police Inspection in bigger cities under the command of a Police-Major or Lt.-Col. The State Police and the local commands of the Schutzpolizei (Communal Police)were subordinated to the State Police Administration (Praesidium or Direktion.

Source : Die Organisationsgeschichte der deutschen Polizei 1927-1937 in Feldgrau by Hauptmann Horst-Adalbert Koch.

Re : "Script R".
There is NO script R in the 1922 Police Stamping Manual.

Klaus
 
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