[donmaus]

On another forum, I got an equivocal response to my question as to whether the pictured grip strap mark on an Alpha DWM Police Luger S/N 3299q represented the Police School at Muenster:
Download Attachment: 3299q front grip strap.jpg
91.47 KB

The problem seems to be that the "official" mark for this school, as specified in the 1932 revised regulations, is "PM.", not the "P.M." of my gun. Earlier 1922 regulations utilized the format "P.X." for police schools but, apparently, there is no listing in these regulations for a school at Muenster.

My only source of information on this, other than responses from other forum members, is "German Police Unit Marks, 1920-1937" at http://www.radix.net/~bbrown/police_unit_marks.html . In looking at that information, it strikes me that there must have been a wholesale reorganization of police schools between 1922 and 1932 as only two of the schools listed in 1932 were also listed in 1922. If this is the case, it seems likely that the Muenster Police School was established between these two dates and, since the amended 1932 regulations had not been issued, the 1922 format would have been required, resulting in "P.M."

I'm sure there are others out there who are much better versed in this. I would appreciate any information that would either support or contradict my hypothesis. Thanks very much in advance.

 

[donmaus]

Is there anyone out there with any expertise on this topic?

 

[Jan C Still]

Don
I dont claim to be an expert on the Weimar Police School markings? They can be confusing when they do not exactly conform to official regulations. Which is the case here.

It could be a simple mistake that the period was added between the P and M.

However, your assessment "it seems likely that the Muenster Police School was established between these two dates and, since the amended 1932 regulations had not been issued, the 1922 format would have been required, resulting in "P.M." is excellent. That P.M. signifies Police School Munster seems more than likely.
Jan

 

[donmaus]

Jan,

I don't seem to be attracting much response to this. I'm thinking about intitiating some research on this topic and asking for forum members to provide information on police Lugers, especially those with police school markings, produced during the period 1922 to 1932 to see if I can find any similar apparent discrepancies. Before I do, I'd like to know if you're aware of anyone else who may have done this already. If not, I'd also like your opinion on what to ask for. I'm thinking of: manufacturer, S/N (or as much as they are willing to give), grip strap marking and existance or not of a sear safety. While I am particularly interested in police school markings, would it be beneficial to get this info for all police Lugers?

Thanks for your advice on this.

Don

 

[Edward Tinker]

Don, have you done a search for "police" on the forum? It will come up with a lot. I am specifically interested in weimar police, so this does interest me. Many times if one expert posts an opinion, than others who agree or don't know won't say anything. That is probably why you received no responses.

I have been slowly collecting police info, so anything you find out, I would appreciate it.

Ed

 

[Dwight Gruber]

There was a discussion on this topic pre-Great Hack stemming from HP./H.P. and LS.Al markings questions, here is the part of it I archived:

======================================================

This post follows-on a post a ways down in discussion of a particular pistol; I have un-buried it and started a new topic because of its general nature.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
JCS (Mar 13, 2003 04:42 p.m.):
The unit marking on the front strap are not consistent with Weimar military markings and are not exactly according to police markings. As Bob pointed out PK signifies Kiel Police School. However, the marking in question is P. K.52. The copies of the original documents shown on page 195 of Weimar Lugers indicate that the correct marking is in fact PK. There is not a period between the P and the K. and the periods do make a difference. There is not another similar marking and Kiel Police School is the most probable.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been wondering just how much leeway one allows in deciphering unit marks, and how one goes about "guessing" if they are not quite right. I have noticed several times in these forums guns up for interpretation whose markings are not exactly as specified in the various German directives, the difference is noted and accepted, and the interpretation goes on to be made.

On the one hand one would expect the legendary German efficiency in exactly conforming to regulation, but obviously some kind of error (human?) or misinterpretation crops up in their application.

Two examples serve to illustrate the point:

The "Annex 10" list on p.103 of Görtz & Bryans lists the Allenstein Landjagerie school mark as LSAI. (period at the end is part of the mark, as listed). On the next page there is a photograph of a grip strap marking identified as Allenstein Landjaegerie school; the stamp is LS.AI.45. (note the middle period).

I have an H.P. marked 1929 Police Luger, with matching marked mag. The closest marking I can find to this is HP. (on the same list). This marking is specified in the list as the Senior Service Police Academy, and the marking on my Luger has been so identified, but I am informed that there is disagreement about this interpretation.

I suppose the question is, for those of us who lack experience in making these interpretations, what guidelines can we follow when faced with a difference between paper and steel?

--Dwight

Date: Mar 14, 2003 on 10:27 a.m.

JCS
Administrator
in Owner - Operator

posts: 600
since: Nov 24, 2002 2. Re:Unit Mark Interpretation Questions


Dwight
Prussian police unit markings are exactly defined by police marking orders (on another site a moderator insisted on guessing at these markings and four times in a row he was wrong).
Rarley, these markings are not exactly stamped according to orders. In each of the cases mentioned above an unspecified period was added to a police school marking.
P.K. where the regulations call for PK.
H.P. where the regulations call for HP.
LS.AI. where the regulations call for LSAI.

If you search the markings lists on page 195 to 197 (Weimar Lugers) there is nothing else in the Prussian markings orders that comes close to the actual markings. Apparentally the markings stamper thought that the "police" and "school" needed to be separated by a period.

There is another police school Luger shown on page 111 (Weimar Lugers) marked P.S.. It is identified ("probably") as Police School Provience of Sarchen. Based on the above information, I would guess that the extra period was a stamper mistake and change that to Police School Sensburg. Has anyone tracked police Luger unit markings? Are there police school examples that are exactly to orders without the extra period?
Jan

===========================================================

Earlier this year a correspondent referenced an exhibition highlighting the Weimar Police in a city somewhere in Germany, a search should find it for you, and this may be a good place to start your research. I expect that most of the documentation which exists on this topic is in German, and resides in Europe--perhaps the German contingent on this Forum can help you out.

I'm very interested in whatever your research turns up, and I think an English-language monograph on this topic will be a solid addition to the study of Lugers.

--Dwight

 

[donmaus]

Ed & Dwight,

Thanks for the info, advice and encouragement. I do plan to follow through on this although I don't feel knowledgeable enough to produce a monograph. I do plan to make my results generally available. Perhaps someone will use them to generate such a treatise.

I would appreciate your answers to the questions in my reply to Jan's comments. I've also developed a few more questions:
* Is the site I referenced in my original post a reliable source for police marks? Unfortunately, I don't have the books by Goertz and Still.
* Which forums would be appropriate to post a request for information to get wide exposure?
* Dwight, who are the "German contingent" members you referred to?
* Dwight, how do you get umlauts into your text on these forums?

Thanks again for your past and future help!

 

[Edward Tinker]

Don, I believe the site you posted, (and I was the one that provided the link on the luger forum), I believe this site is a compilation from the same books. So, I believe it is essentially copywrited info and shouldn't be on the web! Anyway, I beleive it is good, I have not compared all the associated books with it.

Ed

 

[Dwight Gruber]

Don,

Apologies for taking a while to get back to this topic.

I'm sure that anyone on this Forum who has done research on this topic would have chimed in by now. This is the kind of topic which would have been reported in AutoMag, the Journal of the National Automatic Pistol Collectors Assocition (NAPCA). This publication is only available to members, I recommend your joining and posing your question there as well. AutoMag is a hugely valuable resource, but difficult to access and hard to research.

I expect you are on the right track for your survey questions. If I were asking, in addition to your manufacturer, full S/N (with suffix), grip strap marking and sear safety, I might also want to know about the existence of a magazine safety, chamber date stamp or its removal, presence of the 1920 property stamp, proofs and acceptance marks, and whether or not the serial# is stamped on the rear toggle pin. You'll probably think of other things once you get into the process.

The website you rerference is a good Cliff's Notes but is too superficial for your research. You really do need to track down copies of:

"German Small Arms Markings"
Walsworth Publishing Co.
Marceline MO
Joachim Görtz & Don L. Bryans, 1997

"Weimar Lugers"
Walsworth Publishing Co.
Marceline MO
Jan C. Still, 1993

Both are out of print, and both contain the total compilation of information gathered so far on your topic of interest in English, and you will not have the basic understanding of your subject without them.

Any of the Weimar Lugers categories would be appropriate, and when I call for information I post in the General Discussion Forum as well. I also post my queries on the Lugerforum.

Identifying a "German Contingent" is perhaps somewhat glib. As you search through these forums for background you will come to recognize the names of some regular European contributors who are very knowledgable and helpful.

Ümlauts and suchlike are alternate letters which can be accessed by some special keyboard combinations. By holding down the 'alt' key and typing keypad numbers you can get any number of letters with useful diacritical marks. Here is a short list, particularly useful in typing German:

129 = ü
132 = ä
137 = ë
139 = ï
142 = Ä
148 = ö
153 = Ö
155 = Ü
0220 = Ü

Email me [email protected] and I'll send you a text document with the entire list.

Best of luck with all of this, and I really look forward to your results.

--Dwight