Hello,
Joe Wotka is the specialist here. He might be able to answer that question.
Dieter.
Joe Wotka is the specialist here. He might be able to answer that question.
Dieter.
PPK PARTY LEADER RIG
Observed # 220419k with a nice PL grip in a fairly good PL holster. Gun was about 95%. Were these guns issued with the PL grip or were Party Leaders authorized to buy the grip and the holster? Been trying to make some sense out of the reported numbers. Has anybody ever come up with a list of who may have gotten them???
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Dieter..... Thanks for the reply. I did some reading and found some good information in Rankin's Volume III. He is suggesting that the entire pistol was presented which makes sense after I thought about it. He also states that most records were lost from Zella-Mehlis. I guess my hope is that someone else kept track of who may have gotten them. Surely a long shot but you never know. I do not own this gun but I'm trying to become the owner and will do "show and tell" if I am lucky enough to acquire it.
Dave,
Try this link.
http://www.panchogun.com/FV-Walther-PPK-Political-Leader-Page.html
Matter of grips separate from pistol is currently debateable.
Joe W. has made significant contributions.
He is a wealth of information, and generously helpful.
Try this link.
http://www.panchogun.com/FV-Walther-PPK-Political-Leader-Page.html
Matter of grips separate from pistol is currently debateable.
Joe W. has made significant contributions.
He is a wealth of information, and generously helpful.
Pancho....... OUTSTANDING information. Sure fills in a lot of gaps in my limited knowledge. I have carried a copy of the info on the good/bad grips since you posted it. There was no doubt in my mind on this gun but it was nice to have something to fall back on just in case. You keep this up and I might have to buy you an adult beverage one of these days......... Many thanks.......
Have talked to the owner and it looks like we have kind of a rolling auction going on. I guess the $64 question is what is a 95% PL rig (gun and PL holster) really worth these days????
I've seen from 6k to 10k depending on condition of course. However, some sellers will hold out for big bucks because they usually can get it from highly motivated buyers. If you're in a "bidding war" than be forewarned that for some buyers; "the sky's the limit" on a righteous Party Leader.
Tom....... Thanks....... I think .......... I guess it get's to be all about separation: men/boys........ I do appreciate your reply.
A PL in 95% condition, just by itself, without a holster, will fetch $5,000 these days. The PL was always pricey, but these days, it has become the trend setter in the pricing market. About 4-5 years ago, they were at approx. $3,000, but that is ancient history--a bygone era. (Insert baleful lament, followed by a prolonged blast of invective, then weeping.) Oh well, that's WW2 pistol collecting in the 21st century.
Pancho
Pancho
What's the general price difference between the guns with only the RZM marked slides versus the ones with the PL grips and no slide marking?
I know of 2 RZM PPK's that are currently for sale for between 2-3,000. Again, there has been big increases in the last few years. I'm assuming uncracked grips, and 96-99% finish.
Pancho ...... Thanks for the thoughts, fatherly advice and counsel. Going fishin with an old friend for a few days and suspect I will talk to the owner again this Friday...... will give me something to think about while I'm cleaning fish..........
So, it sounds like you are paying probably a $2,500 premium or more for a RZM pistol that includes PL grips that you can't be sure are genuine real deal as issued grips. When I was back at SOS last year a collector showed me a real PL grip and a fake pair. I looked them over very careully under good light and with my special magnifying glass and I could tell no difference. In fact the faked one looked more authentic than the real one. I would NEVER be comfortable buying a RZM PPK with PL grips unless I not only knew the seller VERY WELL but also had some history on the ownership of the pistol I could maybe verify and confirm dare I say. Even with this precaution it could still be risky. So what to do? As Pancho has said this is the state of affairs in vintage military pistol collecting in the 21st century! We must be careful and very circumspect when dealing with any high ticket unique/rare military pistol before we pull the trigger and BUY it!
Lloyd.... The gun I'm looking at is not an RZM. They guy has his name and last 4 of his SN written inside the holster. He's 80 years old. I asked him how he came to be the owner and he said he had a P-38 which were "all over the place" and he traded a guy even up because this one had a holster with it............
I haven't seen a PL sell for under $4,000 for about 2-3 years.
You can still find a nice non-PL, 95%+, E/N, PPK for under $1,000.
If it has a PL grip on it, then it's near $5,000.
Seems that would make the PL grips alone worth approx. $3,500 - 4,000.
Ouch.
Taudelt, not clear if the seller is indicating that he traded for it during WW2, and thus the PL is his bringback. If his bring back, then # he put in holster should NOT be his social security number (SS#), but should be his military ID#, which is different from his SS#. If his bringback, with last digits of his SS#, then I would be suspicious of his story. You can alway take good detailed external & internal photos of the grips and post them, and then we could compare them.
Lloyd, Ditto on the fake grips. Spoke w/ Joe W. some while ago, and he told me that he has seen fake PL grips with the spring steel inserts. Apparently, there are fakes out there which are better than the fakes pictured on my website. Unless I were certain about the authenticity of the grips, I would not buy one without an inspection period where I could return the pistol, and I would use this period to send photos, etc, to other collectors to help me authenticate the grips. Aside from some scattering within a serial number range, the only unique characteristic of a PL is in the bakelite grips, and since the grips alone are worth at least three times the value of the pistol, it is essentially important that the grips be authenticated.
Pancho
You can still find a nice non-PL, 95%+, E/N, PPK for under $1,000.
If it has a PL grip on it, then it's near $5,000.
Seems that would make the PL grips alone worth approx. $3,500 - 4,000.
Ouch.
Taudelt, not clear if the seller is indicating that he traded for it during WW2, and thus the PL is his bringback. If his bring back, then # he put in holster should NOT be his social security number (SS#), but should be his military ID#, which is different from his SS#. If his bringback, with last digits of his SS#, then I would be suspicious of his story. You can alway take good detailed external & internal photos of the grips and post them, and then we could compare them.
Lloyd, Ditto on the fake grips. Spoke w/ Joe W. some while ago, and he told me that he has seen fake PL grips with the spring steel inserts. Apparently, there are fakes out there which are better than the fakes pictured on my website. Unless I were certain about the authenticity of the grips, I would not buy one without an inspection period where I could return the pistol, and I would use this period to send photos, etc, to other collectors to help me authenticate the grips. Aside from some scattering within a serial number range, the only unique characteristic of a PL is in the bakelite grips, and since the grips alone are worth at least three times the value of the pistol, it is essentially important that the grips be authenticated.
Pancho
Pancho... It was a bring back. He did the trading in WWII. By SN I meant his service number..... perhaps I should have been more clear. BTW....... the fishin was great although the catchin was a tad slow.
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