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Dwight, good conclusion.

I have the 1928 police manual. It mentions both the P08 (9mm) and the Parabellum in 7,65.

There will always be a gray area between assumed and validated truths, there is always this one employee who doesn't follow the regulations and finds a short cut. This means there never is a 100% truth and it also means that sometimes anomalies are just anomalies.

Plus what the former Mauser export guy always says: if you order 1000 pistols we put everything you like on them. 馃榾
 
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That would be a waste of money.
Well, that's what they do. Dumb European regulations on proofing created a market for them.

You are not talking about Lugers here, correct?

--Dwight
I don't really collect the wartime commercial guns, but I wouldn't be shocked to see some WaA inspected parts (barrels, etc) turning up on them. Pretty common on the rifles.

Could you please expand on this practice, including how it complies with the German proof law?

--Dwight
I'm not a lawyer, but its perfectly legal to repair a gun with a pre-proofed barrel in Germany and probably most of the rest of Europe for a very long time. German arms makers have been making pre-proofed repair parts for more than a century.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Well, that's what they do. Dumb European regulations on proofing created a market for them.

I don't really collect the wartime commercial guns, but I wouldn't be shocked to see some WaA inspected parts (barrels, etc) turning up on them. Pretty common on the rifles.

I'm not a lawyer, but its perfectly legal to repair a gun with a pre-proofed barrel in Germany and probably most of the rest of Europe for a very long time. German arms makers have been making pre-proofed repair parts for more than a century.
Ryan, I am not trying to be difficult. These statements are exactly the kind of Conventional Wisdom which, when expressed often enough, substitute for fact. I want to know actual examples and documentation as the basis for understanding and further study.

"...I wouldn't be shocked to see some WaA inspected parts (barrels, etc) turning up on them. Pretty common on the rifles." Examples, please.

"... its perfectly legal to repair a gun with a pre-proofed barrel in Germany and probably most of the rest of Europe for a very long time." Prove it.

"...German arms makers have been making pre-proofed repair parts for more than a century." Documentation and examples please.

--Dwight
 

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I mailed a German gun smith. Let's see what he says, as he also worked for Mauser and is well connected in the region. This includes a gun maker who manufactured hunting rifles for many years and did an apprentice-ship with August Weiss.
 
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According to him the 'proofed barrels' idea is just silly. The amount of work to be done before a rifle or pistol can be fired (and shot) safely and reliably is just too great.

The 98 was proofed as a barreled receiver combo, with proper headspace and bolt, the sights and sight base are then installed (hard soldered) afterwards.

With the P08 it was more difficult as the sight base needed alignment, headspace in the receiver, etc...

So, a dealer keeping some barreled receivers with bolts, understandable. A dealer having a few barreled P08 receivers, perhaps. But having proofed barrels only sounds unlikely.
 

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According to him the 'proofed barrels' idea is just silly. The amount of work to be done before a rifle or pistol can be fired (and shot) safely and reliably is just too great. The 98 was proofed as a barreled receiver combo, with proper headspace and bolt, the sights and sight base are then installed (hard soldered) afterwards. With the P08 it was more difficult as the sight base needed alignment, headspace in the receiver, etc...So, a dealer keeping some barreled receivers with bolts, understandable. A dealer having a few barreled P08 receivers, perhaps. But having proofed barrels only sounds unlikely.
Then Dwight's suspicions are likely correct and Sturgess is probably mistaken about the Peruvian Luger barrels in 7.65mm being replaced with 9mm barrels already stamped with the DWM C/N commercial proof.
 

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"...I wouldn't be shocked to see some WaA inspected parts (barrels, etc) turning up on them. Pretty common on the rifles." Examples, please.
A later Standard Modell (B block circa 1936) with a WaA63 barrel. The barrel may have failed a later inspection for some silly reason, or it was just diverted to the commercial side as surplus. Not that uncommon.

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"... its perfectly legal to repair a gun with a pre-proofed barrel in Germany and probably most of the rest of Europe for a very long time." Prove it.

"...German arms makers have been making pre-proofed repair parts for more than a century." Documentation and examples please.
I don't live in Europe and can only go by what my European collector friends tell me. Its not an uncommon practice according to them.

I quite literally have a post above showing a pre-proofed barrel diverted to military production in 1936. Pre-proofing parts was not some unusual thing. Military spare bolts were all proof-tested before leaving the factory. Its not that hard to come up with a jig to pressure test bolts or barrels.
 

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Military acceptance markings are not similar to commercial proofs, neither are procedures and costs.

Mauser did divert unaccepted military pistols to commercial channels, examples are known. But to pay for commercial proofing before assembly is not good business.

Proofing a barrel in a jig is one thing, but for commercial sale the barrel must be mated to the receiver and bolt, otherwise the pressure proof would be pointless. And nobody in his right mind pays twice for something that is required once.
 
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Discussion Starter · #30 · (Edited)
I don't really collect the wartime commercial guns, but I wouldn't be shocked to see some WaA inspected parts (barrels, etc) turning up on them. Pretty common on the rifles
DWM P08 military produced parts (army and P04 navy) were not inspection stamped (pressure parts were, of course, acceptance and proof stamped in their turn). Careful inspection of 1908-1921 commercial Lugers occasionally reveals parts ftom the military production stream; Conventional Wisdom explains that these were parts which failed military spec inspection, but were still suitable for commercial assembly. There is no documentation for this, but August Weiss has stated that DWM never wasted any resource.

Erfurt P08 production was exclusively separate from DWM, and there is no example evidence of Erfurt reject parts migrating to DWM commercial production. It should bee remembered that Erfurt was an Imperial (government) rifle factory, subject to different manufacturing requirements from DWM particularly regarding reject parts. Nearly all parts were inspected and certified; questionable parts either went before the Revisions-Commission and were accepted (and stamped), or rejected outright and stamped as such with an A.

Many collectors still give credence to the Conventional Wisdom that serial numbered parts were altered to be suitable for commercial production, and that large numbers of these parts were responsible for significant portions of DWM post-war production. This remains contentious and is under continual investigation.

I cannot speak knowledgeably about Mauser commercial P08 production, and I hope that someone with detail specific information will weigh in.

--Dwight
 

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--- snip ---
For barrels, there may be at least two separate test firings with proof cartridges.

The first (AKA preliminary or provisional) proof firing may be done at the maker鈥檚 request to a barrel that is chambered and bored, but otherwise unfinished. This preliminary proof firing is intended to detect barrels that have material or mechanical flaws that make them unsuitable for further work. This is a test of the barrel only.
--- snip ---

A barrel that passes preliminary proof must still undergo and pass the definitive firing to be deemed suitable for commercial sale.
Provisional proof firing is an optional service offered by state sanctioned proof houses. It is completely voluntary and done only at the request of the proof house customer.

Provisional proof of a barrel is a cost saving action. It is done to discover and remove faulty barrels that would likely fail the required final, definitive proof firing of the assembled barrel, receiver, and breech block.

Generally, the requirements for a barrel to be accepted for preliminary proof are:

1) Barrel is correctly chambered and will accept proof cartridges.

2) Barrel is bored, end to end.

3) Barrel is submitted with a breech block sufficient to contain the chamber pressure during proof firing.

Barrels submitted for preliminary proof may, or may not, at the option of the proof house customer:

1) Have a correctly dimensioned bore

2) Be rifled, if a rifle or pistol barrel, or choked if a shotgun barrel.

The bottom line here (in a business sense of the phrase) is provisional barrel proof is requested by a proof house customer to avoid putting a lot of manufacturing time/effort into a barrel that has hidden flaws which would cause it to fail definitive proof firing.

Barrels that fail provisional proof are junked.

Barrels that pass provisional proof may have all the missing manufacturing steps completed and go on to become barrels ready for assembly with a receiver and breech block suitable for definitive proof.
 

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A procedure that might be useful for small scale high end commercial shotgun production, but not for pistol barrels.
 
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