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Greetings all forum members and militaries collectors.
After searching for a while i finally was able to get myself another polish artifact - Ng30 - manufactured in pre-WWII Poland- Nagant revolver !

We all know Russian made Nagants model M1895, but Polishmade revolver Ng30 is very little known to the world, simply because very limitedamount been ever made in Poland- only about 20000 between 1930 - 37 before switching to Wz35.
Also most of them been lost forever during WWII with verylow survivor ratio.

In my opinion this is very important piece for Radomcollectors - first pistol manufacturedin Second Polish Republic 1918 - 1939 (R.I.P )

Look at quality and all fine ditels in this nice example -same as Vis, manufactured with superior attention todetail and finish.
I think that we Poles had something fantastic and unique goingon in that field, something that been taken from us forever in 1939.......


I would like to say "thank you" to Charles fromYankee Armorer in NJ for working with me on price for that unique piece and making it happen for me !!

In few words about this Ng30:
Manufactured in 1935. All finish is authentic - no captureon import markings - honest bring back.
Has all correct polish army "Eagle" proofs and G2proof on grip element.

Pistol is all matching but cylinder - this one is only 200numbers different - most likely factory mismatched.

Pistol and all small parts #13465
Cylinder only #13624

As always few questions to forum members:

1. Was it common for factory to accidentally mismatch parts? Being only 200 numbers off it is hard tobelieve that this cylinder been replaced later in the war or after - especiallysince nice original finish is same on cylinderand rest of the gun.

2. Since revolver has military proof G2 , does it mean thatit been issued to Polish army only? orPolice and army with same G2 proof ?

3. How would you rate condition and honest value - knowingthat cylinder is few numbers off.


I am also in hunt for at least 7 rounds of authentic Polishrounds for that pistol - simply to fill cylinder with good and correct polishammo. I know it is hard to come by, but maybe someone here have it and will bewilling to sell or trade ( i have thons of 8mm and 9mm WWII german ammo)

If any one has authentic holster for Polish Ng30 availablefor sale please let me know - i amlooking for one at this point :)

Any way, i am attaching some close photos of that revolverso every one can see superior Polish pre-war craftsmanship and quality , onceagain - nowhere to be found those days...

On pictures also next to my Wz35 - great and outstanding setin my opinion - what you think.

All comments and opinions welcome.

Thank you

Michael ( Michal ) Ga.
 

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Pistol is all matching but cylinder - this one is only 200numbers different - most likely factory mismatched.

Pistol and all small parts #13465
Cylinder only #13624

As always few questions to forum members:

1. Was it common for factory to accidentally mismatch parts? Being only 200 numbers off it is hard tobelieve that this cylinder been replaced later in the war or after - especiallysince nice original finish is same on cylinderand rest of the gun.

2. Since revolver has military proof G2 , does it mean thatit been issued to Polish army only? orPolice and army with same G2 proof ?

3. How would you rate condition and honest value - knowingthat cylinder is few numbers off.

Hi mauser1937,

First let me congratulate on your fine Nagant revolver - a nice catch, keep up the good work.

Now - with under 20K revolvers manufactured over 8 years (as the last deliveries are dated within Q1 1939 and totaled over 700 pieces, not small amount) 200 serial numbers is BIG deal. As I wrote before about the Vis pistols: there was no such thing as 'legit factory mismatch' at the FB Radom. Not with QC capable of throwing away almost 2000 pistols over blemishes small enough to be restored within the Delta series of 1939, and not with a military acceptance stamp, because the first thing any inspector would check is whether the numbers match. No match - no stamp, simple as that.
So please stay assured that this weapon left factory all-matching. Now - what happened next, that's the entirely different story. The accepted revolvers (or pistols) were delivered to depots, where they were completed in rigs with holsters and whatever accessories, and then delivered to the regional police depots, from where these were distributed to the regional police HQs, and they issued these to individual officers. Somewhere along that route, or rather I suspect at the terminus, in the police units, someone might just reassemble it upon cleaning after some qualification or whatever shooting with someone else's cylinder, which happened to be 200 s/n off. That's the only logical explanation, IMHO.

Now why were Police weapons stamped with military acceptance, if the Ng wz.30 was never intended as a martial weapon? Simple: because the military acceptance already had a standing structure at FB Radom, and the Police did not. The military QC experts just lent a helping hand to their other state-sponsored colleagues. Bear in mind, that Ng wz.30 was a fringe product at the FB Radom - their main fare were Mauser 98 carbines, the wz.98 (cavalry) and wz.29 (other services), made in their tens and hundreds of thousands annually, and they were inspected by the acceptance cell embedded at the factory. (They still have a military acceptance station there, even in the new factory compound, built last year to replace the 1920s buildings). The revolver deliveries were so few and far between, it was simply no use to duplicate the inspection already in place with a separate police-only structure. These were still those long gone forever days when the governments shied from needless spending and looked four ways at each cent (or grosz / penny / centime / pfennig) before spending it. Same story with Police imported weapons: a batch of 300 Walther PPKs were ordered in 1938 and delivered Q1 1939, the only one known survivor has a Warsaw G/2 military acceptance stamp on the frame.

As to the values - I have no idea, being too far from the American market. This revolver IS a mismatch, however, its honesty notwithstanding. That has to be some detriment as to its value - but in my eyes even with a mismatched cylinder it is still a rare bird and good catch, a piece of history.
 

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Even though it is in amazing shape, it is still a mismatch. As far as value I don't know either but the mismatch subtracts a decent amount. You have excellent photography skills, may I ask what camera you use?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Well, I do not have fancy or professional camera - Canon Power Shot SX700 HS . I think is more about skills and finding correct moment to take shot :) I always had passion for pictures, but only as hobby:)
 

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Very nice pistol. The Pre-war Polish quality is simply outstanding. Congratulations.

These pistols are very pleasant to shoot. According to the Museum of the Russian Military and the display there, Stalin carried a Tula made Nagant revolver.

I hesitated to add, but feel compelled, be cautious with the Yankee Armory IMO. They burned me and promised to do a partial refund. They never did. The old man who was involved may be gone now, if so may he RIP, I do not know. I saw a short lived series on TV, I can not recall which one, but they burned the guy buying on the show too IMO. IIRC, they were selling an 1903A4 and/or a PU?? I have no knowledge that they knew what the had but it was all wrong on the TV purchase. Know the gun, not the seller. They will never get my business, nor the business of anyone I know.
 

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hello.Leszek,Now I have a few questions.I thought the delivery of 300 pistols of PPK was never confirm( at least a few weeks ago).Is it a fact right now and it what way is it documented?We know that production of NG 30s started in 30s and continue until 37,overlapping production of Vises in 36.You are saying none of the produced NG30 were intended for military service(even before Vis pistol was introduced).Why some were stamped with military inspector and some not.Michals revolver being dated 1935 would not be in the batch of last 700 made anyway.Good collecting.Regards Kris
 

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hello.Leszek,Now I have a few questions.I thought the delivery of 300 pistols of PPK was never confirm( at least a few weeks ago).Is it a fact right now and it what way is it documented?We know that production of NG 30s started in 30s and continue until 37,overlapping production of Vises in 36.You are saying none of the produced NG30 were intended for military service(even before Vis pistol was introduced).Why some were stamped with military inspector and some not.Michals revolver being dated 1935 would not be in the batch of last 700 made anyway.Good collecting.Regards Kris
1. PPK - there was a specimen photographed I think in Rankin book on Walthers, and it was another later on sold by 'Jack the Dog' seller on Auction Arms (or was it other auction site?). Please find the photos attached. There's capture paperwork with it. So, while I still maintain that there is no paper trace of the delivery being actually made THAT I KNOW OF, in view of the fact that such pistol exists, I think it was probable after all - the archives are VERY incomplete here, being captured by the Germans, re-captured by the Soviets and only partly returned, only to be depleted and scattered during the 1950s all over again.

2. Production of a handgun is made out of two phases: fabrication and assembly. For the Nagant the fabrication ceased in 1937, but assembly continued in 1938 and 1939.

3. Yes, I'm saying no Nagants were intended for the military. The handgun board started with a revolver idea, but both of these were Spanish S&W copies, and anyway both went overboard in 1927. Ever since then only the semiautomatics were ever considered for the Army. The Nagant tooling from Liege was purchased with the expressed idea to cheaply arm State Police with it.

4. The State Police was not the only recipient of the Nagant revolvers from Radom: these were also carried by other security entities, state and private-owned as well. Only the Police batches were state-accepted (for the Police by the military inspectors), while those intended for other users did not need to be accepted - and so they were not.

5. Yes, Michal's 1935 would not be in the last 700 - and that's precisely why his mismatched cylinder does diminish the value (albeit not dramatically - as would e.g. substituting of a Soviet cylinder do).
 

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hello.Thanks for info ,as usual,very interesting.How would you explain the fact of 300 guns ordered being scattered from 224000 to 226000 basing only on these two above "proven".It may be even bigger gap,but I dont have a Dieter H. Marschal serial data in which he states he has a few(8) more numbers with such a stamp.Were they delivered in small batches?Capture papers above dosent proof anything besides the fact that such a gun with such a number was brought to the States.Stamp could have been added later on(just for an argument) Dont get me wrong.I would love for them to be legit specimen,so I could hunt one down.Regards Kris
 

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Leszek, so what were Polish officers armed with in Sept. 1939? There weren't enough Radoms for everyone. I sort of assumed it was these and Imperial Russian Nagants. Karski, in Story of a Secret State, describes a surrender scene, where the officers surrender their revolvers:

As one man, we turned our eyes on the white hut surrounded by larch trees, to the left of the road. It shone in the sun, about thirty steps away from us. Among the larch trees on either side of the hut we saw now a row of glinting machine guns trained on us. We hesitated, uncertain of what to do next, no one willing to take the initiative, until the two colonels stepped determinedly forward, unsheathed their revolvers and dropped them almost in the doorway of the hut. They were followed by two captains, who did likewise. The first move had been made. One by one the officers came forward and followed the path of their predecessors, the soldiers gazing at them incredulously. I took my turn as if hypnotized, unable to convince myself that all this was really happening. When I got to the hut, I was surprised at the size of the pile of revolvers. I pulled out my own, regretfully thinking of the care I had expended on it and the little use it had been. It was still sleek and smart-looking. I dropped it and returned, feeling empty-handed and without possessions.


Karski, Jan (2011-05-05). Story of a Secret State: My Report to the World: My Report to the World (Penguin Paperback Classics) (p. 17). Penguin UK. Kindle Edition.
 

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Hello,
A bit of correction, Michal you stated G2 as a proof. I looked on your pics and it is in fact a D2. I double checked my Nagant and it is a D2 NOT G2.
As for ammo, look at a thread about 9mm ammo I started: Radom Vis 9mm ammo
There are now 4 variations of casing markings by two companies.
 

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Very nice pistol. The Pre-war Polish quality is simply outstanding. Congratulations.

These pistols are very pleasant to shoot. According to the Museum of the Russian Military and the display there, Stalin carried a Tula made Nagant revolver.

I hesitated to add, but feel compelled, be cautious with the Yankee Armory IMO. They burned me and promised to do a partial refund. They never did. The old man who was involved may be gone now, if so may he RIP, I do not know. I saw a short lived series on TV, I can not recall which one, but they burned the guy buying on the show too IMO. IIRC, they were selling an 1903A4 and/or a PU?? I have no knowledge that they knew what the had but it was all wrong on the TV purchase. Know the gun, not the seller. They will never get my business, nor the business of anyone I know.
Hi Mike,
As for Yankee, Charles is still around and kicking. I just saw him in Allentown.
The TV series you mention, was it about British father (boss) and his American son arguing constantly how to run their bussines? If so that was about IMA, a company from NJ. They disappeared from Allentown a year ago or so.
 

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hello.Thanks for info ,as usual,very interesting.How would you explain the fact of 300 guns ordered being scattered from 224000 to 226000 basing only on these two above "proven".It may be even bigger gap,but I dont have a Dieter H. Marschal serial data in which he states he has a few(8) more numbers with such a stamp.Were they delivered in small batches?Capture papers above dosent proof anything besides the fact that such a gun with such a number was brought to the States.Stamp could have been added later on(just for an argument) Dont get me wrong.I would love for them to be legit specimen,so I could hunt one down.Regards Kris
Kris, I think the scale of production is again the answer: 200 serials for Nagant was a big deal, while 2000 for PPK - not necessarily so. These pistols could have been just picked at random from a company warehouse. There are no documents concerning the delivery that I know of, either in Polish archives, or in German ones - otherwise I think Dieter Marshall or Manfred Kersten would have long ago came up with it. You have to remember that in mass production the fabrication and assembly are separate parts of production process, and assembling in serial numbers sequence is an exception rather than a rule. Perhaps if that would be an order that the company found prestigious the serial range would be tightly knitted - but that was obviously considered "an" order, not "the" order.
The above is of course a pure conjecture, but failing a complete list of serial numbers from the Polish contract that's the most probable cause of a 2000 gap within 300 ordered - that, or as you have proposed, the contracted 300 were fed piece-meal, which is also very probable, taking into consideration the backlogs and RZM priority in Walther PPK deliveries. The Polish connection for years would rather be a detriment to a Nazi pistol on a collector market, so I doubt anyone would ruin a nice Walther adding a G2 stamp :)
 

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Leszek, so what were Polish officers armed with in Sept. 1939? There weren't enough Radoms for everyone. I sort of assumed it was these and Imperial Russian Nagants. Karski, in Story of a Secret State, describes a surrender scene, where the officers surrender their revolvers:
Paweł, take into consideration, that for many non gun-buffs at that time 'revolver' was a generic term for any handgun, regardless of their being actually a wheel gun, or a semiauto. I have seen several such piles Karski writes about photographed by the German photo reporters from the front in 1939, and I have never seen a REAL revolver there - mostly either Vis or smaller automatics, with an occasional Luger (several thousands still on the books in 1939).

As I wrote in other post, ever since late 1920s the wheelguns were considered obsolete in the Polish Army and although some old-timers might still carry their Lebel 92s, Gasser 98s or even Russian Nagant 95s, these were not considered 'regulation' handguns. You had to be high enough in the military pecking order to resist the pressure to replace your 6-, 7- or 8-shooter (Lebel - 6 rds, Nagant - 7 rds, Gasser - 8 rds) with an auto. Or conversely - you had to be low in it enough to be burdened with one at the time of 1939 mobilization.
At the outbreak of the war the Polish Army was still 15-20K handguns short of the TO&A, and whatever left after the big warehouse airing during the Spanish Civil War (during which Poland was the second largest arms supplier for the Republic after the Soviet Union), was heaped upon hapless reservists called up during summer of 1939.

In the Polish Army, as with most European militaries of the time, handguns were of two general classes: private and issue. Private handguns were the property of Commissioned Officers - they were to buy themselves their guns, holsters, pay for ammunition and maintenance. The only regulations that regulated these handguns was one that they are to report for service with a "proper" handgun in serviceable condition. The meaning of "proper" was very broad, and differed from a command to a command - and from commander to a commander, really. The only more or less common terms were that the 'proper' handgun should a semiautomatic and not be a .25 ACP mouse gun (except for gala occasions). Some generals were more martial than the others and issued their own 'property standards' regulating their officers' handgun in minute details. Other believed officers should know themselves what is proper, and what is not. Take e.g. Maj. Franciszek Skibiński, staff officer for the Polish most advanced armored unit, the 10th Cavalry Brigade (Motorized) - commanded by Col. Stanisław Maczek who later commanded the 1st Polish Armored Division in the ETO. He was carrying a Luger until 1935, when he was mugged at night in Bydgoszcz, and despite having his pistol with him, he almost got slashed with a knife, because of the habit to carry the Luger with an empty chamber - not that easy to rack the slide with one hand while fending off a knife-armed assailant, mind you. He eventually managed to reload his pistol, shot one assailant on top of himself dead, the other got wounded and tried, but he discarded his Luger in favor of Colt Government .38 Super, with which he fought in 1939 and had to surrender in Hungary, when his unit had to intern itself to avoid being overrun by the Soviets after 17 September back-stabbing invasion. So much for the 'regulation handgun' being carried by the commissioned officers.

The term "regulation handgun" thus only applied to the "issue" class - those that were given (or rather loaned for duration of the military service) by the state to the Enlisted Personnel (EP), aka Other Ranks (meaning other than Commissioned Officers: privates, NCOs and Warrant Officers) employed in a function warranting a handgun. There were not very much handgun slots for EPs in the Polish Army: a total of 122 NCOs, privates and WOs per regiment were entitled to a handgun. There were 32 slots in regimental HQ and services, for NCOs and WOs in command roles (XOs/2-ic for the commissioned junior officers at platoon level), privates, NCOs and WOs heading the regimental supplies and services (incl. the paymaster retinue), and 30 issue handguns per each of three line battalions. During the mobilization handguns slated for the HQ personnel were halved to free more for the line units - but it was still not enough of these and all possible shelf-queens were thus dragged out of the warehouses, even these which lacked any ammo at all. An Air Force reserve 2nd Lt Bohdan Arct, later a Battle of Britain hero and popular writer after the war, wrote in his memoirs that for the personnel of his Air Liaison Platoon with one RWD-8 unarmed aircraft he only got one rifle (for 40 soldiers) and one handgun (for the aircraft pilot, i.e. himself) - a Vis. He should be happy to get that much, as other veteran of the 1939 wrote that upon a call-up he was given a "large French revolver with a bore like chimney [which seems like a description of an 11 mm Mle 1873 to me] but no bullets or holster. I tucked it into my belt and looked like a damned pirate".

So to sum it up: anything holsterable was possible to be encountered at a belt of a Polish soldier in 1939, but the most probable handgun was a semiautomatic, of caliber .32 or larger, with Radom Vis wz.35 as THE regulation handgun.
With the Police in 1939, the regulation handgun of a regular Peace Officer (be it enlisted or commissioned one) was a flap holstered revolver (ideally a Nagant either Russian or Polish, but many Lebel 92s and Gasser 98s as well) for Patrol Division (uniformed police), a flap holstered .25 semiautomatic for female officers (mostly in administration), a .32 semiautomatic in a shoulder or hip holster for detectives and other plain cloth officers, plus whatever found 'proper' by the chiefs (most of whom had military background and mostly brought over their own private guns).
 

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Very interesting post, Visniewski thanks for the read.
 

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Thanks for a thorough explanation with such colorful anecdotes. Where would I read more about Skibiński's misadventure? Sounds like my kind of guy.
The Bydgoszcz incident was related in "Ułańska młodość" of 1989, his 1918-1937 memoir, the 1939 campaign with a .38 Colt he reminisced in 'Pierwsza Pancerna' of 1965. In that latter he also related his next altercation with a Luger, when he shot himself in a foot (literally) through the table trying to strip a loaded Luger captured from Germans at Falaise :)


For our non-Polish readers who probably don't know the gentleman, let me add a little footnote:
Franciszek Skibiński (1899–1991); 1939: chief of staff, 10th Cavalry Brigade (Motorized); 1940: chief of staff, 10th Armored Cavalry Brigade (10th ACB) in France; 1940-1943: chief of staff, 10th Armored Cavalry Brigade, then commander, 10th Mounted Rifles, eventually 2/ic, 10th Armored Cavalry Brigade within the 1st Polish Armored Division; 1944-1945: commander, 3rd Rifle Brigade, then commander, 10th Armored Cavalry Brigade. After the war returned to Poland in 1947 and headed the Armored Troops Chair of the General Staff College, arrested and tortured by the Communist security apparatus in 1951, sentenced to death for alleged high treason in 1952, commuted in 1954. Released in 1956, he resumed his military career, soon promoted to the rank of Major General and then Lieutenant General, retired in 1964 after 47 years of active service. Celebrated military scientist, writer and lecturer, he authored close to 25 books on military tactics and history, plus 2 memoirs. I was privileged to get to meet Gen. Skibiński in person in the 1980s, while at high school. He was a very lucid and outspoken gentleman, who cured me fast and forever from any overly romanticized views on armored warfare I might have suffered from at that time :)


 

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I to have a 1935 Nagant FB Radom NG 30. All matching numbers. Extremely lower than the one mentioned above... 10 thousands. Its in really really Great Condition! Would like more info on it please! Thank You So Much!
 
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