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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here is a new addition to my collection. I obtained this pistol from a fellow collector who had it in his collection for many years.
The CZ 24 was the standard issue pistol for the Czechoslovakian military when Czechoslovakia was occupied by the Germans in 1939/40. According to Mr. Still, at least 100,000 were issued to the army. Most of these pistols were confiscated from the army and reissued to German forces without additional proofs.
I have read of CZ 24 pistols which have German test proofs and Waffenamts but never seen a photo of the latter.
This pistol, serial number 186601, is proofed with the Czech "J Lion 37" on the right side. Right above that proof is a Eagle/WaA76 proof. I would guess this pistol was either returned for repairs or part of a large stock captured at an armory or arms depot. This would give the German inspectors a chance to mark this pistol before reissue. The barrel is also marked with WaA76. There is no test proof.
This pistol has two "P MOD 24" marked magazines and a WaA76 marked holster which has the pistols serial number stamped on the back.
This pistol is in excellent condition. I hope you enjoy the photos I have included and , as always, any comments are welcome.



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Dean,

That is a great rig and to find one German Army acceptance stamped (and a pre occupation captured German reissued one) with a matching holster is a very special and rare military pistol! That is wonderful that the pistol passes from one collector to another devoted collector to enjoy. Thanks for posting pictures of this rig and congratulations on a spectacular addition to your collection!
 

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Something seems really odd about that rather large very nicely struck WaA76. All that I have seen have been on the forward trigger web. The Germans accepted the Czech proofing laws as equivelent to their own so the capture of a large store of weapons would not have been reproofed. When a weapon was repaired it was reproofed. The missing firing proof is really odd as well. the only Nazi Proofed barrels I have ever seen have been acid etched proof and never struck. Granted I have not seen'em all, but something is odd with the markings on this pistol.

Robert
 

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Robert, I completely share your opinion.
The WaA stamp seems extremely strange and is far too big.
Some years ago some CZ-27s appeared here in Germany with similar stamps.
The WaA stamps always were in unusual (wrong) places.
The form of the fetching holster and the markings are also peculiar.

Fritz.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks guys, I looked under a 10x loop and the stamps are poor. Nothing like my Hi-polish CZ27. I am going to contact the original owner and see what info he has. I will keep you posted. Nothing extra was paid for the markings, about the price of a nice CZ24.
Dean
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi Guys,
Well, I talked to the former owner who stated that he has had the pistol in his collection for 15-20 years, since the early eighties. He also said he did not pay any extra for it due to the Waffenamt. This is just one I noticed out of all his pistols. He did say he had heard of others in his 30 years of collecting. Where are they now?
I agree that the stamp is odd. The Waffenamts on my CZ 27s are different, most appear to have been stamped prior to the finish of the pistol. There is no test proof on the barrel, only another WaA76 which was double struck.
I don't defend this pistol, I don't condemn it either, it is what it is.
I have included more photos.



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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi,
Forgot to add some info on the holster. The holster was brown when issued and had been dyed black many years ago. The Waffenamt on the rear of the holster is a WaA76 and it is NOT the same one as used on the pistol.
Hope this helps a little.
Dean
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Some additional thoughts for this subject.
First, it was stated that the Germans accepted Czech proofing laws as equivelent to there own. I agree with this statement. But as a note, the Germans also accepted Spanish and Italain proofing, yet many pistols obtained from these countries well have a Waffenamt but no test proof.
If the test proof is to show that assembled pistols and parts passed a pressure test and the ones currently on the pistol are accepted then no test eagle should appear unless that pistol was modified or repaired such as a TT-33 converted to 9mm.
This would be different for a Waffenamt. It is my understanding that a Waffenampt is to show a weapon or part was accepted into military service. So, even though a countries firing proof was accepted, wouldn't a weapon have to show a stamp for military acceptance? A Waffenamt?
Granted, weapons captued in the field may be returned to duty without additional proofs. But weapons captured in storage might be proofed before re-issue or shippment to another unit.
The Waffenamt on this CZ is rough but it is not unlike the Waffenamts on my WaA613 High-Power. The one thing in common is that both these pistols may have been Waffenamt stamped early in the campaign or occupation?
I admit that the Waffenamt is large and looks nothing like the one used later on the CZ 27s. The double striking, or die bounce, is common in hand proofing. Could this show that the proofing was done somewhere other than a clearing house for new weapons, maybe at a different level. Very similar to the Waffenamt pictured in Jan's Axis Pistols on page 58.
The Waffenamt is in the wrong place, or is it? Somewhere along the line, the decision was made to place the Waffenamt on the right side on the frame above the grips of the CZ 27? If you were following this advice and a batch of CZ 24s came along with a an acceptance mark already in that spot, where would you place the new one? Above the Czech one?
Again, I am not defending this pistol, I didn't pay that much for it to crush me. We can speculate all day long. I am in search of proof. Proof that it is authentic or fake.
We can just collect, or we can collect, research and document.
If you are like me, you seek history's truth. Buying the gun can be the easy part.
Please, I am looking for thoughts, photos, anything. I love this hobby.
Dean
 

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Lets take a stab at your questions and comments.

Once again I will reiterate that I do not claim to know it all. I collect serial number data on the Czech made weapons to help with questions like this. This is the only Cz-24 pistol I have ever seen that has a large Waffenampt in this location. There are a couple of examples of Waffen proofed Cz-24’s but they do not have Waffenampts, they have the firing proofs. The only one I have seen in person has a stamp located on the right forward trigger web, just like the Cz-27’s that are prior to the Bohmische markings. My none serial numbered Cz-24 that has the acid etched firing proof does have what appears to be a double struck WaA76 on the bottom of the barrel just forward of the lugs just like yours.

Another point I would like to make is that most all the other Cz-24’s with nazi marks only have the firing proof and not the Waffenampt. You can see the typical markings in Axis Pistols pg 57. The same pistol is also shown in Whittington’s book, and Berger’s book. I would take that fact as an indication of the difficulty in finding a German proofed Cz-24.

Another point that seems to be missed here is that the pistol is a 1937 acceptance marked pistol. This was not a pistol sitting in stores at time of German occupation. Every firearm that could be produced was put into service. As an example note all the Vz-24 export rifles that have Czech miltary acceptance marks on them. The Czech were producing as many weapons as possible to stop the German expansion prior to the abandonment of the Czech by the French and Brits. Even the late pre war Czech production Cz-27’s are Government acceptance marked.

I cannot offer proof only statistics based on observed serial numbers. But even when only 15 .22LR Cz-27 were ever made almost half of them survived. This is the only one I have ever seen with this kind of marking. Even if someone was going to fake a few we would have seen at least one more mark this way.

Now with that all said I don’t want anyone to take it wrong. I am very much into the Czech firearms and especially the Cz-24 and Cz-27 pistols. I do not have access to the kinds of production records that Berger is quoting in his book. I only have serial number data that was either sent to me or observed on my own, books that have snippets of information and a Computer attached to the Internet. I am no expert, just an enthusiast. I am not going to say the pistol is a fake. I would label it suspicious and wait for more info.

Robert
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Robert,
Thanks for the reply and information. I was hoping there would be more discussion on this pistol. This is the part of collecting that is the most interesting and rewarding.

As a note, I don't think for a minute that this pistol was "unissued" and sitting in some storage crate. By the condition, it does appear to have had a rather soft life prior to the occupation. I am not sure of the situation just prior to the Germans taking control of Czechoslovakia. I don't get the impression that there was heavy combat that resulted in piles of weapons lying in a muddy field fresh from the hands of Czech prisoners. Maybe someone with more info on the how the situation took place could educate me. Did Czech army units surrender in the field? Were weapons returned to armorys? Were the weapons turned in to German collection points? I have no idea.
I would imagine that a little of everything took place. Some weapons were turned in to collection points or armorys and some were thrown into the rivers rather than hand them over.
I would agree if there was more than one proofed by the Germans or faked, then there should be more out there. We just need to find some more. Another one, fake or not, would help us a lot.
I would think, and I could be wrong, that .22 trainers, cut aways and shop prototypes would have a higher survivablity rate than a "field" or service pistol due to their enviornment and conditions. And the fact that when it came time to dispose of weapons, those types take a low priority and would be left in storage, on ranges and in the factory just waiting to be collected by some G.I.
I need more information here. If Czech pistols were reissued to a German unit and that unit was transferred to another location, would the pistols go with them? I would think that single soldiers that were transferred would leave pistols with the unit.
Fritz mentioned that he had seen some CZ 27 pistols that were faked. I hope someone has a photo of one of those, it would be a great help. Not only on this pistol, but for CZ's that appear in the future.
Robert, again thanks for the great info, it is always a pleasure to discuss subjects like this one with other collectors.
By the way, anyone have info on this holster? I have not seen one like it before. Did the Czechs number holsters to the pistols? Did the Germans do it frequently? I think the German police did more than others. Any photos of other WaA76 stamps on holsters? Please post one if you have one available. By the way, this pistol or photos of it, are always available if anyone would like to come by and check it out. This is the same for any of my items.
Dean
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
For anybody still following this pistol, I have some more photos. I was able to take it apart and really clean it this weekend. The WaA76 on the barrel is a double strike. You can really tell when you look at the number 7 and the fact that the numerals and eagle touch. Maybe two attempts to print the eagle and then the numbers. The result of using a flat die on a round surface. It is very similar to the one pictured in Col. Whittington's German Pistols and Holsters, Vol II, page 101. Although that one looks to be a single strike, no eagle.
I was able to compare the barrel Waffenamt to the one on the frame and they look to be the same size.
Still looking for photos of the fake Waffenamt E/WaA76 mentioned and more CZ 24 Waffenamts.
Dean



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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
For anybody still following this pistol, I have some more photos. I was able to take it apart and really clean it this weekend. The WaA76 on the barrel is a double strike. You can really tell when you look at the number 7 and the fact that the numerals and eagle touch. Maybe two attempts to print the eagle and then the numbers. The result of using a flat die on a round surface. It is very similar to the one pictured in Col. Whittington's German Pistols and Holsters, Vol II, page 101. Although that one looks to be a single strike, no eagle.
I was able to compare the barrel Waffenamt to the one on the frame and they look to be the same size.
Still looking for photos of the fake Waffenamt E/WaA76 mentioned and more CZ 24 Waffenamts.
Dean



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