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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Dear Jan, and other esteemed collector colligues; I recently encountered an otherwise excellent,(95%+) 1936 S/42 serial number 29xx g with matching magazine.
On page 92 of Jan's 3rd Reich book, figure 14a. the center image appears to have an un-numbered extractor. The 1936 I encountered also has an un-numbered extractor that does not fit as flush to the breach block as on my other pieces. I am assuming that extractors sometimes broke and field replacement parts were used to make repairs. It is my guess that this is what is the case with this 1936 S/42. The extractor is marked "geladen" as you would expect and is in excellent condition and matches well with the rest of the piece except as I mentioned above it does not fit flush with the breachblock but is raised a little bit. I guess what I really want to know is how will this condition effect the value of this Luger ? I have a reasonably good idea as to the value of a piece like this if it had the original serial numbered extractor in place, what I would like some help with is do collectors like you now consider this a "shooter" or a "parts gun" ?, or does is otherwise excellent piece still worthy of collecting?
 

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Rich
The Luger on page 92 of Third Reich Lugers (1940 byf) is out of sequence production. These were sometimes made from a variety of parts and an unmarked extractor is not surprising. Notice that all the other standard production Lugers shown in Third Reich Lugers have matched extractors. Based on observartions of hundreds of lugers it is almost certain that your 1936 left the factory with a numbered matched extractor. The source of the unmumbered extractor on the 1936 is not possible to determine for certain. It was replaced after it left the factory (sometime between 1937 and 2003). A wartime field replacement is possible as is replacement by a post World War II gunsmith or a collector.

The 1936 with an unnumbered extractor is worthy of collecting but has to compete with many 1936 Lugers with numbered matched extractors and is worth some what less.
Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Jan, thank you for your reply. Of course you are right that the one non original part will reduce the value somewhat. What I am trying to determine is about how much to deduct from the value for this problem. The 1936 S/42 was offered to me by a friend who is retired, getting on in years and is selling off some of his firearms. I am trying to determine a fair price, (fair to both of us) .
I'm sure we've all met collectors who tell stories about buying excellent valuable specimens for ten cents or less on the dollar "from the widow" who had no concept of the value. I really don't see how that is much more ethical than the felons who victimize the elderly getting them to withdraw money from their savings under some fraudulent pretext. I consider the seller a friend and want to pay him a fair price for this Luger. So my question is would you deduct 5% or 75% ? My gut instinct tells me that the non correct extractor on an otherwise excellent 1936 S/42 would bring the price down 30 to 50 %.
Do you think I'm in the ballpark with that estimation?
 

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Garfield, I don't know if I would have worded it quite that way, but...

In my opinion many "collectors" go ape-s*** when they find out your gun is Not-Matching. I may be wrong and a fool, but one small part that is unmarked or mismatched means a lot less to me than the top and bottom half being different numbers...

Ed
 

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Rich
You may want to try and remove the pin and spring to see if there is any corrosion or crud built up under the extractor causing the piece to sit high in the block. Normally field or shop armours replacement parts are a good fit. In my opinion your reduction is a bit harsh, the forum that we entertain here is not about trying to grind the other guy to the last dollar, it is about helping one another out in the respective fields of collecting, on another note genuine armours replacement parts are proofed and do not detract value as they are period correct to the pistol.On this one let your ethics do the talking and give your friend a fare shake. The old saying what goes around comes around may fall true in this case. Personaly I have purchased lugers from unknown sources and have received referrals and other offers from the same people due to fair pricing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Dear Garfield, Luger Lou, and Wiemar Police, thank you for your replies to my post. It was not my intention to insult anyone here at Jan's GLCP&AP, if my comments struck a nerve with Garfield please accept my apologies. The question that still remains unanswered is approximately how much would you reduce the value of an otherwise good 1936 S/42 for a mismatched extractor?
Garfield expressed an opinion about what was wrong but no one, including Garfield has offered any general opinon about how much is right. I'd like to thank Luger Lou for his intellegent question about proofed armorers replacement parts. I know in the Costanzo book "42" and "S/42" marked replacement parts are mentioned. Alas I have found no such mark on this extractor. I have seen very few so marked replacement parts, and I have never seen an "S/42" or "42" marked replacement extractor. If anyone out there has I would enjoy seeing a picture on this site. In my last post I rhetorically asked if you would deduct 5% 0r 75% ? I know that assessing the value of an old Luger is not an exact science, not a science at all but an art, and requires close personal examination for any kind of accuracy. I'm not asking for an appraisal, just some ballpark estimations of how much less would you think the value is for this type of mismatched part. What do you think? 5%, 10%, 15%, 20%, 25%, etc? Please don't tell me whats wrong, let me have your opinion as to what is right.
Thanks for your replies. If I were a bit more skilled with the computer I would include some images. I will try to do so later.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
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Here are some images. The grip straps have thining blue with brownish patina
The grips are not numbered but have a "W" stamped on each.

The extractor sits high and is not numbered or marked except for the "Geladen".

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Rich
I see what you mean by the extractor sitting higher than normal, on my 1936 S/42 the extractor does not have the cross grain machining that shows up in your picture,the one I have is more polished.As to your question on the pricing you should be able to find a better match from one of the forum members or if you monitor ebay you may get lucky and find the correct numbered piece, although it would be a forced match,these generaly run around 30.00 and up, so if you deduct that percent plus your troubles from the firearm price you will come up with a fair price for your friend.You did not offend me in any degree as my opinions are my own. In respect to the proofing I have not encountered an extractor with a armours proof,usualy axle pin proofs are more common as they are more prone to wear.
 

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quote:Originally posted by Rich

I have a reasonably good idea as to the value of a piece like this if it had the original serial numbered extractor in place, what I would like some help with is do collectors like you now consider this a "shooter" or a "parts gun" ?, or does is otherwise excellent piece still worthy of collecting?
This single small part mismatch does not reduce this otherwise excellent Luger to the quality of a shooter or a parts gun, I think you know this.

The art of Luger pricing is too imprecise for a percentage reduction in a case like this to be meaningful. If I were to be in the market for a fairly high-dollar, collection-quality gun with an unmarked extractor, I'd want $150-$200 to come off the price on account of it.

--Dwight
 

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Rich: You certainly did not "strike a nerve" with me. On the contrary, I am of the impression that my response may have been offensive to you. In any event, no apology is expected.

Being that you want an estimation as to what a fair reduction would be to the value of this pistol and since you are not a person that would not victimize an elderly friend, I would suggest that a deduction of $75.00 maximum from the fair market value would be in order.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
A question for Weimar Police: On Sept 15 you posted this in reference to someone wanting to shoot a 1915 artillery.

"Weimar_Police
Moderator



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Posted - 09/15/2003 :  11:52:49 AM      
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Michael, I understand the wanting to shoot every gun you own, but it might not be the smartest thing to do with all of your guns?
A $1,500 85% Artillery, you break the breechblock or another major numbered part, doesn't this knock about $800 off of its value?
I have some Lugers I shoot and several "collector" guns that I simply can't afford to have broken or damaged. Money isn't the main reason I collect guns and specifically lugers, but to have a Weimar Police Luger worth $1,000 of hard earned money, and break a numbered part, well when it comes to re-sale, it is worth half the value to the vast majority of collectors in the USA."

The number on the breechblock is only visable when you remove the toggle from the gun. Granted the breechblock is a more "major" part than an extractor, but a mismatched extractor is much more obvious. I dont think either part would be easy to find an excellent replacement for, and even if you do find an excellent replacement it really will never be all original again. You offered an opinion as to how much a broken "numbered part" would detract from a Weimar Police Luger. Could you give an opinion how the case presented here is different from or the same as the Weimar Police Luger with the broken numbered part?
Thanks,
Rich
 

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quote:vast majority of collectors in the USA
From this part, I do believe that the vast majority of luger collectors believe that ANY numbered part changed makes it much less valuable.

I don't necessarily believe this, and don't shoot my collector pieces, but if you break the breechblock, to ME a major piece then the value drops a lot.

Grips, an un-numbered extractor, firing pin, those are pieces likely to have been replaced during actual combat.

I consider myself a student of history and do not always make the correct / flawless statement or decision, but I endeavor to do my best on the forum, and I fail to see your point, except possibly to make me look bad?

Ed
 

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Really simple actually Rich.....go by your gut instinct as to what you honestly think the gun is worth to you!!!!! and ask what your buddy would be happy with!!!....then make him an offer and see what happens....10-20% off regular price would be in the ballpark......
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Dear Weimar Police,
I am genuinely sorry if you felt my last post was intended to make you look bad or that it in any way does make you look bad. You don't look bad to me. The few of your post on this site that I have read all seem intellegent, sincere, and in every way civil, consistent and reasonable.

I ask you to forgive me, I can see I,ve been a bit naive with my original question and with my follow up. I can see now asking a bunch of Luger collectors how much to deduct for a mismatched extractor is like asking baseball fans who is the greatest baseball player of all time, or asking movie goers who the best looking star in Hollywood is. There are going to be alot of divergent answers, none particularly more correct than any of the others.

I foolishly thougt there would be a general consensus among more advanced collectors as to how the mismatched part affects value. What I have learned from this is that there is no general consensus other than as Jan originally said it will reduce the value "somewhat".

In talking to other collectors on this site and elsewhere trying to quantify that "somewhat" I have been told a reasonable deduction for the extractor problem is worth from less than 5% to more than 50%.

My point in asking you the question in my last post that you said you failed to see the point of, was to try and get some more information about the difference between a 5% deduction and a 50% deduction. You have expressed your opinions and they seem as valid as anybody elses, again I,m sorry if you felt this was intended to make you look bad, I assure you it was not.

In any event this has been educational for me, like you I am a student of history, I'm not into collecting as a money making scheme. I buy Lugers, I've never sold one. Sometimes we need to remind ourselves this is supposed to be fun. In that spirit I,ve learned not to ask more foolish questions about value. If I do post more topics on this site I'll try to confine myself to the "good stuff" like identifing and interpreting various proof marks and such. If I do, I hope Weimar Police will respond to my posts as he has in the past because I enjoy his posts and respect the quality of them.
Rich
 

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Rich, I probably over reacted, not uncommon when we are talking about a subject such as this, so I accept your apoligy and send one to you, as I can easily see how all of our advice, mine especially seemed contradictory!

So, I believe it really depends on the buyer? I have bought a Luger or other gun, that other collectors might have passed on. Am I sorry I bought it? Not really, as it spoke to me, or it had something I really wanted. So, point is, that it really depends and YOU are trying to give a fair price to this guy, yet of course don't want to spend to much.

Okay, if it was me? Maybe deduct as some said, the time and cost to find a correct part (probably wouldn't worry about it tho), so maybe deduct 15 or 20%?

Ed
 
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