[Luke]

This is REPOST of a subject from the original Jan Still Forum.
I have taken the liberty of posting the replies, as some of them contain valuable information for the beginning collector.

ORIGINAL POST</u>

I have been working with the assumption that ALL of the WW-I DWM Lugers (1908-1918) had the serial numbers stamped on the bottoms of the barrels added AFTER bluing.
Given that assumption, any such WW-I DWM Luger which has NOT been buffed or blued will have a barrel SN which has the following characteristics:
1. The barrel serial number will be crisply defined.
2. The barrel SN will not appear buffed or polished over,
3. This SN will have slightly raised edges around the numbers due to the force of the die driving into the metal,
4. The barrel SN will exhibit a halo or frosting effect around the numbers.
I have been consistently rejecting any Luger from DWM and this era which does not exhibit these characteristics. I have seen MANY which have this number buffed level with the barrel and, in some cases, almost buffed out.
AM I MAKING A BIG MISTAKE HERE. Need expert advice.
Thanks,
Luke


REPLY FROM GARFIELD:

Luke:
In response to you question, Imho, everything you have said is right as rain.
Good Hunting,


REPLY FROM TOM ARMSTRONG:

Luke,
Garfield gets an Amen from me; you are dead on.
Tom

REPLY FROM JAN STILL:</u>

SELECT MARKINGS, IMPERIAL MILITARY LUGERS, (all unit marked, show use, and in original condition)

1908 DWM (Based on 10 observations): dull left receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number sometimes with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1910 DWM (Based on 11 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1911 DWM (Based on 6 observations): sharp or dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1912 DWM (Based on 2 observations): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1913 DWM (Based on 5 observations): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate or faint barrel proof.

1914 DWM (Based on 2 observations): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1915 DWM (Based on 3 observations): dull to sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without or without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1916 DWM (Based on 4 observations): dull to sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate or faint barrel proof.

1917 DWM (Based on 1 observation): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1915 Long P08 DWM (Based on 1 observation): sharp right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1917 Long P08 DWM (Based on 4 observations): sharp or dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1911 Erfurt (Based on 2 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with raised edges without halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1912 Erfurt (Based on 5 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number without halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1913 Erfurt (Based on 5 observations): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with or without halo; barrel gauge with halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

1914 Erfurt (Based on 1 observation): dull right receiver proofs; sharp barrel serial number with halo; barrel gauge without halo; sharp delicate barrel proof.

Note: restoration of 1910 DWM eliminated barrel serial number and barrel gauge halo.

 

[Edward Tinker]

Luke, I am glad you had saved this information, as both of the threads you posted were good to have!

Thanks for re-sharing this valauble information with us,

Ed

 

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

I know this is an old thread, but I have two questions please.

1. Did the halo effect occur immediately upon number strike or is this effect something that becomes more obvious with wear to the surrounding finish?

2.Also, regarding strength or intensity of the effect...would a near mint gun be expected to exhibit as much of this effect as a gun with much wear?

 

[Edward Tinker]

1. The halo is the pushing / striking of the metal, so it would be immedatie.


2. Mint guns from 90 years ago always make me suspect, but the answer is yes, the strike is still very visible, especially on the barrel IMHO.


Ed

 

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Thank you for your response Ed.

 

[Pete E.]

Steven,

You might enjoy reading this other thread :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12764&SearchTerms=halo

You will learn some more about "halos", see some photos of legit halos, and learn about Navy Lugers and the "boosted" Navy Lugers that are "taking" beginning collectors for $$thousands$$...

 

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Pete, thanks very much for the link.

 

[WLyon]

Have to agree with Ed. In 45 years of luger collecting/interest I have never seen a mint luger that wasn't refinished. They may exist but very doubtful. Bill

 

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Hi Bill,

Perhaps I was a bit overzealous in my statement about being "near mint". Maybe 90%+ condition would be more in keeping with the best condition Lugers encountered?

I am looking forward to learning from you guys. My area is in the Walther PP, everytime I take interest in a new gun, I have to start all over again from the basics.

 

[WLyon]

Steven 90+ sounds better. Again % of bluing is very subjective. Welcome to the luger world. It is addictive!!!! Bill

 

[Pete E.]

Steven,

Here is a $ 5800 gun for sale :

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/781SwissCom06.htm

Take a look at the BUG proofs on the underside of the barrel. It shows no halo but they should. The seller is cleverly "quiet" about making any statements to let a beginner know if the gun is DWM original finish or not.

Here is another gun photo to which to compare this seller's gun :

 

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Hello Pete,

Thanks for the visual comparison. Even with my novice eyes, I can see major differences in the two.

Here is the link: http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/793DWM1914.htm

I am getting really nervous about my purchase now. I am awaiting item (793), the DWM 1914 Imperial Luger w/unit marking on their site. I do see a halo around the 77 on the side, just ahead of the safety bar, the other numbers I cannot tell if there is a holo effect. I just hope that when I get it, it is everything that I was told it was in my phone conversation with Tom. I specifically asked if the finish was original, I was told yes. I did not know about the halo effect at the time, so I of course did not ask about that. The gun looks excellent in the photos, but I am looking forward to a hands on inspection. From what I saw in the photos, I really did not see anything that jumped out at me as being suspect.

Bill was kind enough to look at the site photos for me, and he did point out that it looked like a repair to the "million dollar chip"...my eyes missed it but he detected that possibility. If that is all that is wrong with the gun, I can sleep easy as to me that is no big deal. It is going to be a long 4 to 5 days waiting for the gun...

 

[Edward Tinker]

Pete, although this is good research, I do not consider anyone trying to buy a $5800 guns as a 'beginner" gun. Let alone a $3000, $4000, etc, yet folks do it all the time.


I guess I am too old fashioned, but if folks are willing to spend $4500-$12,000 and not do proper research, then I feel bad for them, but have little sympathy for them.


There are several, if not many threads on who is a good dealer on this forum and the lugerforum.com; there are $500 worth of books a person should buy before buying an expensive luger. The excuse that the books cost so much is mind boggeling when I see folks buy a $3200 piece of ****.


Ed

 

[Pete E.]

Steven,

You need to read more postings in the WWI era section and about WWI unit markings.

Questions you will need to research are :

1. Should your WWI Imperial Luger's barrel SN have "halos" ?

2. Should your Unit Markings have "halos" ? (Hint...they are not done at the DWM factory.)

You will also need to become familiar with this outfit's "return policy" if that is a direction you chose to do...

Here is a link to another WWI Imperial Luger you might want to look at :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13253

And another :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=13211

This discussion thread discusses the 1908 Imperial guns and the later 1910-1918 dated guns :

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2287&SearchTerms=halos

 

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

quote:Originally posted by Pete Ebbink

Steven,

Here is a $ 5800 gun for sale :

http://www.phoenixinvestmentarms.com/781SwissCom06.htm

Take a look at the BUG proofs on the underside of the barrel. It shows no halo but they should. The seller is cleverly "quiet" about making any statements to let a beginner know if the gun is DWM original finish or not.

Here is another gun photo to which to compare this seller's gun :

Pete,

It looks like the barrel is a different color when compared to the rest of the gun, would this be consistent with a cold blue touch up process?

If so, would this indicate the deliberate addition of fake markings, and the blue is intended to cover the fresh glint of bare steel under new stampings?

 

[Pete E.]

Steven,

I have learned (after 2 lesson-guns) that with every gun I buy and which I cannot see/hold in my hands in person, I will document everything in an email before I send money.

Even if a phone conversation, I will send a confirming email (or snail mail letter) asking the seller to "agree" to what I have written and to confirm what he has stated about his gun and its condition.

I will ask the seller to send me the "confirmation" back to me signed by him and then I will send money.

That way I have a clear paper-trail of what the seller said and did not say about the gun they were trying to sell me.

When I have proposed this methodolgy to some sellers, they have balked and refused to "sign" such a confirming email or letter from me. In those cases I chose not to buy or they just simply told me the gun is no longer for sale...

Either way...money stayed in my pockets.

 

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

Pete,
Yes, I agree this is a good idea. As a matter of fact, I did this after my conversation, and the specifics are stated on the invoice. To quote from the e-mail..."The finish is original", additionally it states that the gun "has all matching numbers". So, I should be on solid defensible ground if </u>a sendback is waranted.

I would also like to say that while my knowledge is no where near some of the knowledge expertise here, I have read and researched before a purchase. It is very difficult to gain all of your experience through words in a book and even photos. Some of you have handled hundreds of these guns and that experience is invaluable. So far, I have not had the opportunity to gain that amount of knowledge simply because my time in this field has been short. I appreciate the opinions, and advice, I truly do - I am grateful. I just don't want to come off here looking like a moron that is just looking to waste money. I guess I tend to be too trusting sometimes, and take people at their word. I did not know this site existed until I signed on last week, I wish that I would have found it sooner, but...anyhow, the advice given here will not have been wasted.

 

[donmaus]

Steven,

Even if the gun does not live up to its advertising, don't beat yourself up. We all have examples of "buyer's regret."

 

[IMPERIAL QUEST]

quote:Originally posted by donmaus

Steven,

Even if the gun does not live up to its advertising, don't beat yourself up. We all have examples of "buyer's regret."

Hi Don,

Yea...I tend to beat up myself a lot if something doesn't manifest in the way that I thought it should. My wife tells me that I am my own worst enemy. (; I want badly for this gun to be what it advertised to be, but I will just have to wait and see. Thanks.

 

[Pete E.]

Steven,

Your barrel marking of Bo 30 (just above the SN on the barrel) is explained in this discussion.

This barrel maker (Austrian...IIRC...) is thought to have been a supplier for DWM during the Imperial era when volume of guns produced was high at DWM. Some think the number is a hardness test number of some sort. Others have postulated the number might be some order/lot number that Bohler used to track various delivery-batches to DWM. Not sure who is right in this case.

http://luger.gunboards.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5105&SearchTerms=bohler