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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
REWORKED LANDJÄGEREI LP08s

Some of you may have read earlier posts in which I discussed my conclusion that many Imperial-era P08s with Weimar-era Prussian police markings and/or sear and mag safeties had once been LP08s used by the Prussian Landjägerei from 1920 to 1929 (e.g., http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?t=14515&page=2) . It is contrary to conventional wisdom that a segment of the German police openly used LP08s but the May 1929 order from the Prussian Ministry of Interior for the arming of the Landjägerei with newly manufactured P08s is very clear in also directing that the LP08s then in use be returned to the Berlin Polizeischule für Technik und Verkehr (PTV). I believe they were returned as directed to the PTV in 1929, reworked as P08s, often refinished, and then re-issued to various Prussian police. This resolved two questions that had been nagging at me during the research for my forthcoming book, History Writ in Steel – German Police Markings 1900-1936:

1. What happened to the Landjägerei LP08s that were replaced in 1929 by newly manufactured 29 DWM P08s? There may have been as many as almost 9,000 of them. To my knowledge, no one previously has postulated a reasonable answer to this question.
2. How to explain the existence of many dated Imperial-era police P08s that, if they are marked at all, apparently were not marked by the police before the issue of the 1932 marking order, Regulation 40a? If they were issued to the Schupo in the early 1920s, why weren’t they marked in accordance with the 1922 marking order? Some researchers have suggested that these were secretly stockpiled after WWI and later issued to the police.

A key conclusion I had reached in the process of formulating the above theory was that the Prussian Landjägerei had not marked its pistols prior to about 1931-32 as directed by Regulation 40a. This explained the lack of any evidence of police markings from the 1920-29 period on these pistols and led to the realization that they had been in the possession of the Landjägerei during that time.

I recently acquired a P08 that exemplifies many of the characteristics of these reworked and reissued LP08s. I present it here in hopes this will help to identify more of these pistols.

The pistol is a 1918-dated DWM, serial number 4849a, with Imperial-era acceptance stamps on the right side of the receiver and typical military-style numbering of parts. All small parts have matching serial numbers, including the rear toggle axle and the firing pin which does not have “blow-by” channels. There is a notch at the front of the receiver for an LP08 tangent sight. It has a Schiwy sear safety and is notched and drilled for a Walther magazine safety that has been removed.

The replacement barrel bears a PTV/E proof stamp as well as E/33 and E/45 acceptance stamps which I understand are associated with products manufactured by Simson & Sohn in Suhl. The barrel also has the numeral 4 stamped on the bottom as well as the bore gauge 883. (Oddly, there is no comma in this number.) I believe the 4 indicates the year of manufacture of the barrel by Simson (i.e., 1924) but this is speculation.

There are two matching aluminum-base magazines numbered 1 and 2. Both magazines have had earlier markings very professionally ground off and appear to have been stamped with the same dies. These probably were replacement magazines issued when the reworked pistol was issued.

The grip strap markings on this pistol are atypical of most such reworked LP08s in that there is a canceled earlier mark of the Schupo of Koblenz (S.Kz.E.85.) as well as a later mark in conformance with 1932 Regulation 40a (S.Kz.274.). Most of these pistols have either a single mark in accordance with Regulation 40a or possibly no mark at all. None has evidence of an earlier police marking that was ground off. The markings on my pistol are consistent with the history of the Schupo in Koblenz which was not formed until the withdrawal of French occupation forces on 30 June 1930. The first mark probably was applied in 1930 and then canceled in 1932 when new marking instructions were issued. This will be discussed in more detail in my forthcoming book.

In summary, the reworked Landjägerei LP08s that I have seen have the following characteristics:

o DWM P08s with 1918 or earlier chamber dates, notched receivers and Imperial-era proofs and acceptance stamps.
o Replacement barrels with a PTV/E proof stamp. May have additional stamps indicating manufacture by Simson but the PTV apparently obtained barrels from various sources.
o Grip straps that show no evidence of having been marked by the police in the 1920-1929 time frame. Some bear Schupo or Landjägerei markings conforming to the 1932 marking order, some have Gemeindepolizei markings and others may have no grip strap marking at all.

All of the examples I have identified are DWM P08s raising the question whether the Landjägerei used any Erfurt LP08s. A very interesting 1914 Erfurt with the marking of the Landjägerei of the Aurich district was recently posted on the LugerForum (http://forum.lugerforum.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=150448#post150448 ). This pistol has the receiver notch for a tangent sight and */C and TP stamps on the right side of the receiver in addition to the Imperial-era stamps. The TP stamp was introduced in 1935 for the Berlin police armory which by then was known as the Technische Polizeischule. The */C was used up to this date. Together, they suggest the LP08/P08 rework occurred in 1935, after which the pistol was issued to the Landjägerei of Aurich and marked before the termination of police marking in 1937. Whether or not this pistol had been used earlier by the Landjägerei as an LP08 is open to speculation.

I invite anyone who has or knows of a Luger with the above characteristics to post the details, including photos, in this thread to aid in developing a more complete understanding of these pistols. While it is too late for the results to be recorded in my book, Dwight Gruber and Ed Tinker are writing a book on Police Lugers and should be able to use these data. To get things started, I am listing below the examples from my database. Since I was interested in the grip strap markings, I did not record any unmarked examples but I think I recall seeing reports of them. Note that two of the pistols have an earlier canceled marking. Both of these pistols were issued to Schupo in cities that had been occupied following WWI and did not receive P08s until about 1930. Their initial markings were applied between 1930 and 1932 and then canceled when the 1932 marking order was issued.

1915 DWM; sn 9945; sear safety; marked L.Kz. 1.; Receiver cut for LP08 tangent sight; barrel has E/6 & PTV/E stamps; earlier Imperial-era unit mark 32.R.A.I.L.M.K.57. canceled

1917 DWM; sn 1894g; sear safety; marked T.72.; Barrel stamped PTV/E

1917 DWM; sn 4973h; sear safety; marked P.Sda.6.; Receiver cut for LP08 tangent sight; replacement barrel stamped E/RC, E/6, PTV/E

1917 DWM; sn 8538h; no sear safety; marked S.Ar.III.302.; Earlier mark ground off; receiver cut for tangent sight & barrel stamped E/6, E/6 & PTV/E

1917 DWM; sn 9270i; sear safety; marked S.Sch.I.967.; 1920 property stamp; mark canceled; receiver cut for LP08 tangent sight; PTV/E & E/6 on barrel

1917 DWM; sn 619k; sear safety; marked T.11.; Barrel stamped E/33 & PTV/E

1918 DWM; sn 1927a; sear safety; marked P.S.14.; PTV/E stamp on barrel

1918 DWM; sn 4849a; sear safety; marked S.Kz.E.85. (canceled) & S.Kz.274.; Receiver cut for LP08 tangent sight & barrel stamped E/33, E/45 & PTV/E

1918 DWM; sn 543b; sear safety; marked L.T. 16.; Receiver cut for LP08 tangent sight; barrel has E/RC, E/6 & PTV/E stamps

1918 DWM; sn 1179b; no sear safety; marked S.Kö.I.O.5. (canceled) & S.Kö.I.1423.; 1920 property stamp; receiver notched for LP08 tangent sight; barrel stamped PTV/E

1918 DWM; sn 15xxb; sear safety; marked L.Kz. 2.; Reported as having “Simson” and PTV/E stamps on barrel

1918 DWM; sn 6509b; sear safety; marked L.T. 129.; Receiver cut for LP08 tangent sight; barrel has E/RC, E/6 & PTV/E stamps

1918 DWM; sn 1771e; sear safety; marked S.An.336.; Receiver cut for LP08 tangent sight; E/6, E/8 & PTV/E stamps on barrel
 

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Dwight and I would be very interested in seeing other examples like this, or even LP08's with a sear safety installed and/or any other police unit markings.


Don, another outstanding lesson and example!

Ed
 

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Prussian Landjagerei LP 08 PTV rework

Don, I believe that this is another example of what you are researching.

1918 DWM military LP 08 rebarreled. "b" suffix. No grip strap markings. Matching mag, holster and tool. Sear safety, mag safety removed and slot filled.
 

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Don,

It is really great to see that you have been able to find a substantial number of LP.08 that were recalled by the Berlin PTV after the Landjägerei received their newly made DWM pistols in the 's', 't' and 'u' blocks; and which were reworked into 'standard' P.08 pistols.
Excellent work Don; hats off to you!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
John,

Thanks for posting these. The police acceptance */D on the rear toggle link is a feature I have not observed before but it makes sense since the LP08 links were replaced with ones with fixed sights.

I was hoping your grip strap would show traces of the earlier marking but it is very thoroughly scrubbed. I re-looked at the photo of the canceled marking on the 1915 DWM listed first in my post (see photo below from the F.G.S. web site) and have concluded it is one or more Imperial-era markings - not Reichswehr. This makes more sense since it seems unlikely that the pistol would have been issued to the Reichswehr and then reassigned to the Landjägerei. I have edited my post accordingly. I suspect the original marking on yours may have been from the Imperial era as well.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
John, your photos caused me to relook at the rear toggle link on my pistol and I realize that what I thought was just a dent is really a */D acceptance stamp. The D is rather deeply stamped but the star is almost invisible. It looks as if the replacement links, at least some of them, have police acceptance stamps and that the star and the inspector's initial were stamped separately.
 

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Don
Interesting that police would proof the matching rear toggle after replacement. Someplace on this forum the D was suggested to indicate a Danzig police mark. Correct? The matching safety bar on 2645m was also a replacement, as it bears a former Simson proof.
B Regds,John
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
John, the Berlin Armory proof stamp was PTV/E. The */D is a police acceptance stamp for purchased products. This stamp was probably applied either at the source of the link or upon receipt by the Berlin armory.

I vaguely recall the discussion about a larger D stamp but that has nothing to do with this one.
 

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Hi Don. My pistol is on your list, the 1917/1920 DWM, 9270i. After seeing the posting of the star/d on the rear toggle, I looked closer at mine and it appears I have the exact same mark on my rear link, but lightly stamped. I had previously been viewing it from the back of the pistol rather than from the front so did not see it as the star/d.

I would take a pic but my camera is not near enough quality to reproduce on here.
 

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John,

Thanks for posting these. The police acceptance */D on the rear toggle link is a feature I have not observed before but it makes sense since the LP08 links were replaced with ones with fixed sights.
Don, I dug out 543b which is in your database. I hadn't paid any particular attention to the rear link until reading this thread. As I hope you can see from the first photo, the fonts of the serial numbers of the rear and middle toggle links are distinctly different, consistent with replacement of the rear link when converted from LP.08 to P.08.

Also, there is no */D on the top of the rear link but there is a mark on the bottom left side of the link. It is indistinct in the second photo, and it is indistinct under a magnifying glass. However it has the general shape of the */D on the top of John's link and I am confident it is a deliberate stamping rather than a flaw or ding. It would be interesting if any other marks like this one on the bottom of the link are observed.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I relooked at the rear toggle link on 4849a. The 49 is somewhat incompletely stamped but appears to be the same font as on the middle link. However, the rear link number was stamped before bluing (as was the */D on the top) while the 49 on the middle link has a halo. The rear link also has a script u clearly stamped on the bottom in the same location as the unknown stamp on 543b.
 
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