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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gentlemen,

my Sauer-Roth serial number C 205 , having "L.P. 106." marking on grip strap was shown in DWJ some years ago and since then, it is known, that it is a pistol of the Berittene Landespolizei Deutsch Südwestafrika (Mounted police of German South West Africa). Especially the b/w photo of the unit markings are shown quiet often in several sources. What is yet unanswered is the question for the Crown/R marking on the left side. A 2001 jubilee catalog of Sauer Eckernfoerde shows a comparable Sauer-Roth, also having the crown/R on the very same place, as well as on the flap of its holster. I do know, that it is no R(epair) proof, and it is also no military Dutch acceptance. So: what is it?

Any idea is welcome

Martin

Download Attachment: Roth-Sauer_R_mark.JPG
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Left side view : Crown/R marking


Download Attachment: Sauer-Roth_LP.jpg
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L.P.106. marking on back strap
 

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Martin
Outstanding and interesting find.
I obtained the following German SW Africa marked Roth Sauer data from the late James Hellyer of South Africa. At the time(1993+-) most or all of these pistols were in Africa. Yours is on the top of the list.
Roth Sauer, serial number C205 ; Unit stamp: LP 106
Roth Sauer, serial number C706 ; Unit stamp: LP 209
Roth Sauer, serial number C273 ; Unit stamp: LP 184
Roth Sauer, serial number C 419; Unit stamp: LP 92
Roth Sauer, serial number C 408; Unit stamp: LP 55
Roth Sauer, serial number C 212; Unit stamp: LP 123
Roth Sauer, serial number C 559; Unit stamp: LP 109
Roth Sauer, serial number C 161; Unit stamp: LP 72
Roth Sauer, serial number C 378; Unit stamp: LP 228
Roth Sauer, serial number C 61; Unit stamp: LP 237
Roth Sauer, serial number C 737; Unit stamp: LP 179


Here is a link to George's excellent presentation of a 1911 DWM P08 that bears a German SW Africa L.P.unit stamp.
* German Southwest African Police Luger keoki7 (1911 DWM, sn9772e, L.P./370)
http://www.gunboards.com/luger/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=814

Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Jan,

thank you very much for this wonderful information and also for the link to George's L.P. marked Luger. Most interesting, especially, when you bring in line the Sauer-Roth data with the Luger data: it seems, the property numbers were applied to the pistols not systematically: LP 55/72/92 are Sauers, while LP 95 is a Luger, and LP 106/109 are Sauers again.
Any idea regarding the Crown/R marking?

Martin
 

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GERMAN SW AFRICA


Download Attachment: 19151920GSWA1.jpg
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Figure 1. Constables of the “Landespolizei” photographed in 1910, German Southwest Africa. Pistols carried seem to have been of the 7.65 mm Browning type.”


Download Attachment: 19151920GSWA2.jpg
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Figure 2. Details of the Landespolizei holsters shown in Figure 1. The holster has a flap and a magazine pouch on its side.


Download Attachment: 19151920GSWA3.jpg
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Figure 3. More details of the Landespolizei holsters shown in Figure 1. Can anyone identify these holsters?

Martin
The above German Southwest Africa photograph is from James Hellyer. Gortz in “German Small Arms Markings” page 58, captions the same photograph with “Constables of the “Landespolizei” photographed in 1910 on occasion of the State Fair held at Windhoek capital city of German, Southwest Africa. Pistols carried seem to have been the of the 7.65 mm Browning type.”

Cate and Krause in their excellent book “J.P. SAUER & SOHN”, Volume II, page 36, state that: “A few interesting facts concerning the Roth Sauer pistol have been forwarded to me since the first volume was printed. The markings Sch. D. S. W. A. has been noted on holsters as well as German pistols of the era. This marking represents Schutztruppe fur Deutsch-Sudwestafrica. Some Sauer pistols are also marked L.P. which means the Berittene Landspolizei Deutschland Sudwest, or the Mounted State Police, German Southwest Africa.”

The holster shown in the photograph above (figure 1-3) has a flap and a magazine pouch on its side. Could this be the holster for the Roth Sauer marked by the Landespolizei Deutsch Südwestafrika that Martin described? What do these holsters marked Sch. D. S. W. A. look like? Are they similar to holsters shown in the photograph above?


Gortz in “German Small Arms Markings” indicates that the LP xx stamp found on the back strap of 1911 dated Lugers signifies: Landespolizei Deutsch Sudwest-Afrika. Cate and Krause define the same LP xx stamp found on the Routh -Sauer as signifying: Berittene (mounted) Landspolizei Deutschland Sudwest-Afrika. Does this mounted designation apply to both the 1911 P08 and the Roth-Sauer or only to the Roth-Sauer.


Download Attachment: 19151920GSWA4.jpg
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Figure. 4. Caption reads: “West-African German rifles mounted on Camels”. The Landespolizei Deutsch Sudwest-Afrika supplemented the military (shown here) when World War I started in German Southwest Africa.

The Crown over scriptic R on the left side of your Roth-Sauer is likely a police/military inspection stamp.
Jan
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Jan,

thanks very much for the photos and for all the back ground information! well, the "Berittene Landespolizei" info comes from Rolf Selzer, who answered my DWJ request. He runs a nice homepage

http://www.kukri.de/dsw.html

where also my Roth-Sauer is shown.

I can not tell for sure, what the holster in the photos is. COULD Be for a Roth-Sauer, but I don't know for sure.

Martin
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Gentlemen,

meanwhile, I found the Sauer Eckernförde jubilee catalog of the year 2001 where a DSW Sauer-Roth is shown - together with its original holster. What is most interesting: the holster has on the flap the very same crown/R marking, as it is present on the pistol's left side. I feel free to use the photo of the Sauer catalog, as it is the only source I am aware of, where an original Sauer-Roth holster is shown.

Regards

Martin
Has anybody an idea about the crown/R marking?



Download Attachment: Sauer_Roth_Sauerkatalog2001a.jpg
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Gentlemen,
this pistol model was designed and build around 1905, right?
Would like to know how are the interial surface behind the sideplate looks like? deep dark blue ??
I ask that because I have seen a commercial one latly ( not rebblued) - which make my brain working.
Could it be that Sauer used salt bluing to that early time?
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Jan,

a German collector just informed me of his Sauer-Roth with L.P. markings. Serial number of his is C 377, the L.P. number is L.P. 161. Now we have 12 known Sauer-Roth with L.P. markings (sorted by serial number):


C 61 L.P. 237
C 161 L.P. 72
C 205 L.P. 106
C 212 L.P. 123
C 273 L.P. 184
C 377 L.P. 161
C 378 L.P. 228
C 408 L.P. 55
C 419 L.P. 92
C 559 L.P. 109
C 706 L.P. 209
C 737 L.P. 179

Best regards

Martin
P.s.: Where are the photos? A week ago, they were there - now vanished...
 

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Most interesting, especially, when you bring in line the Sauer-Roth data with the Luger data: it seems, the property numbers were applied to the pistols not systematically: LP 55/72/92 are Sauers, while LP 95 is a Luger, and LP 106/109 are Sauers again.
I believe the analysis of Roth-Sauer and Luger L.P. inventory numbers in HWIS Chapter 18 (pp. 304-5) clearly shows that these two models of pistols had separate, parallel series of inventory numbers.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I believe the analysis of Roth-Sauer and Luger L.P. inventory numbers in HWIS Chapter 18 (pp. 304-5) clearly shows that these two models of pistols had separate, parallel series of inventory numbers.
Don,

have you noticed, when I wrote my hunch? It was in 2006.... ;-)

Regards

Martin
 

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While my German translation is poor at best, apparently no explanation for the crown is given in Mötz/Schuy's Austro-Hungarian pistole book "Vom Ursprung der Selbstladepistole'. Page 588 illustrates a DSW strap marked Roth-Sauer, sn.#C559, and holster marked with a crown. Perhaps someone fluent in German can clarify the text - thanks.
 
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