[George]

Hi All:

I am new to this board. I reside in upstate New York, Saratoga Springs area.

I put a deposit on a Sauer & Sohn model 38H and expect to be able to pick it up next week when all the NY paperwork is complete.

I have no knowledge of Sauer & Sohn until recently. I have a few Luger, P38, PPK & PP and assorted other handguns.

What caught my eye about this pistol is that it came with a nice brown 1942 dated holster and two magazines. Pistol seems be in around 95%. Has the eagle over N marking and a C in the web which is a police marking I am told. Price was $275.00. The serial number is 31001?.

I have two of Jim Cote's books on order Vol 1 & Vol 2. I guess I was pretty luck for find vol 1 for $89.00 or maybe not.

Until I receive these two book to add to my collection, I am at a loss of what I got.

Any information on this gun would be much appreciated. I will up load pictures after I receive the gun.

I would appreciate if someone could tell me what type model this is. Also what branch of the police did the C marking go two And also, how come magazines are not numbered to the gun?

Thanks again and have a nice holiday weekend.

Regards,

George

 

[sauer]

George,

Your Sauer was made in mid 1941. The eagle/C mark on the trigger guard is the police acceptance mark. You can't tell from the mark what branch of the police used the gun, they were all so marked. However the brown holster indicates issue to the Gendarmerie, the Rural Constabulary. It would be very unusual to find a police Sauer with numbered magazines. Very few were so marked. None of the ones in my collection have numbered magazines. You got an excellent buy on a desirable pistol. In the condition you describe, with the accessories, I would expect to pay twice what you did.

 

[George]

Dear Sauer:

Many thanks for your reply. Since I reside in New York, we have a ton of paperwork that needs to be completed, and then we need to wait. So, I will not be able to pick it up till Tuesday!

The brown holster is dated 1942 and made in Berlin. That is all I remember after inspecting the gun. The gun dealer went out of town and left his son in charge of the shop. I traveled a little over 1 hour to see the gun and the shop was closed(Shop in in the fathers house) and I happen to catch the son there. He was very short with me so I was not able to truly inpsecit it. I checked the basics and it looks fine and matching. He wrote it up and closed the door.

Seeing a complete rig always get's me excited. Having both magazines is also not all that common. A buddy of mine was at this shop a few days before and told me about the gun.

Let me ask you, with the P38's & Lugers I own, the date on the gun usually matches the holster. There is no date on this Sauer 38H and you indicated it was made in mid 1941. With this said, is a brown 1942 proper for this gun?

The gunshop owner is going to get the complete scoop on the fellow who sold it to him. He did ask and he was not the person who brought it back from WW11. It will be interesting to see how long the old timer has owned it and where he purchased it..

Come Tuesday I will be a happier person. I need to find both of Jim Cates books now. I found a place that has JP Sauer & Sohn Vol1 but iI now think $89.00 is to much. Vol 2 is availble just about anywhere. Any suggestions would be much appreciated.

Thanks again Sauer for your reply. I will upload pictures next week.

Regards,

George

 

[sauer]

George,

Your 1942 holster is most probbably correct for your gun. My own high polish Eagle/C is SN. 295719, and came in a brown Schambach/42 holster. Holsters were purchase seperately from the gun, and then issued accordingly, hence the difference in year markings. I don't know where a Volume I of Cate's book is available. You might try an internet search for it. I treasure my copy, and wish it could be reprinited. It's the best reference for the Sauer pistols I know. Best wishes.

 

[George]

Dear Sauer:

Thanks again for all your help and information. As mentioned, I will be picking up my Sauer & Sohn 38H on Tuesday. I will take a few pictures and upload them.

My copies of Vol 1 & Vol 2 should arrive by the end of the week.

In an attempt to lean more about this pistol, I have been monitoring GunBroker.com, Auctionarms.com and Gunsamerica.com. Very few 38H are available.

Thanks again and have a nice Holiday Weekend.

Regards,

George

 

[sauer]

George,

To ease your paperwork hassles, you might want to apply for a FFL Curio and Relic Collectors License. It allows you to purchase firearms over 50 years (including all the WW II rifle and pistols) without all of the state and local BS. It costs only $30 for 3 years, and is very easy to get. Check it out.

 

[George]

Dear Sauer:

I see that you are located in PA! My friend, here in the land of milk and honey, New York State, State overrules Federal and they do not allow it. In order to buy or sell handguns, you must have a valid FFL. I looked into it back in 1997. Even went as far as contacting BATF in Atlanta, GA and getting required application and booklet to later find out the New York State does not allow or recognize C&R! It sure would have been nice most of the guns I was looking to purchase were listed as C&R guns.

Regards,

George

 

[sauer]

George,

The type 3 license (Collector of Curios and Relics) IS a valid FFL within the scope of it. It allows you, for the purpose of developing a collection, to purchase firearms interstate and localy from licensed dealers, so long as the meet the definitions of a "Curio or Relic". IE: any firearm over 50 years old, or that has been designated as having signifcant collectors interest by the Department. A complete list should be available on the BATF&E website. I don't think any State laws can supercede the Federal. Didn't we fight a Civil War over State's Rights vs Federal Laws? I'm not sure of web sites, but you might want to check it out anyway.

 

[George]

Dear Sauer:

I understand the purpose of a type 3 license(Curios & Relics) It would be great to have one, as it would save me much time and money. However as a said before, New York State does not recognize them. To deal with handguns here in New York, you need an type 1(FFL)!

Well Sauer my friend, I don't think you would be a happy camper residing in New York. New York is not an easy state to deal with. For example, I have an New York UNRESTRICTED CARRY PERMIT. I also have a PA Carry Permit, as well as many from other states. Yet, you as a PA resident are not allowed to get a New York Pistol Permit because you are a non resident. New York says you must be a resident. Most states issue Carry Permits to out of state residents, not New York.

In New York, State overrules or supercedes Federal. When Federal mandated a NIC's background check, New York did not require it. However, they did adopted it on 11/01/1998, but was never required even though it is a Federal requirement. I am by no means an lawyer or have much experience in this matter. I am advising you what I have learned.

I am researching this matter and will post my findings. Maybe something has changed. Thanks again for all your help!

Regards,

George

 

[sauer]

George,

Pa. tried to tell Class I dealers not to sell to C&R holders without full paperwork because they were not dealers. Technically they were correct about us not being dealers, since we are forbidden to engage in the business of buying and selling guns, but the C&R was found to be a valid FFL for purchasing to further our collection, and the state boys had to back off. Too bad New York is not so enlightened. We also enjoy the benifit of a "must issue" carry permit law. If there is no legal reason to refuse the permit, it must be issued, and is good statewide (even in Philladelphia). It amazes me how two states that share a common border can be so dissimilar. Best wishes.

 

[George]

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82.64KBDear Sauer:

I picked up my Sauer 38H this afternoon. I must of had a Brain Cramp when I told you it had a brown holster. Holster is actually black and over time it lightens to look dark brown. However, under the flap where the date and manufacturer in stamped it is black. Stamped to the left of the magazine pouch is SCHAMBAUCH&CO, BERLIN, 1942 and below that an Eagle over Swastika. There are no other markings on holster. Holster is in great shape with two magazines. Serial number of pistol is 310014.

Pistol has E/N in all the correct places and has last three digits of serial number on breech & bottom front of slide. Inside the pistol there seem to be many H stampings. I remember reading something about that somewhere.

All screws including grips screws look to have never been removed and are in great shape. There is little bit of holster wear on the muzzle.

I have never handled or field striped a JP Sauer & Sohn model 38H until this afternoon. I am familiar with Lugers, P38, Walther PP & PPK, Mauser Hsc and other handguns that I own. I do have to say I was very impressed with this pistol. I thought the German Military guns I own were a work of art. This JP Sauer & Sohn 38H is truly amazing!

Here are the pictures!

Regards,

George

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[Mark]

George,

Very nice gun, you really got a great deal!

My brother in law lives in New York State and I believe the problem is not that the ffl isn't recognized but that state law requires a judge to approve a seperate license for every handgun. So to comply with state law you must get the judge to approve each gun so a C&R ffl won't help you get past the state law approval process.

At least here in the Greater Republic of Massachusetts the C&R ffl works like anywhere else even though the AG passed consumer protection rules against new guns sold, limiting what is available.

Mark

 

[sauer]

George,

Very nice rig. Congradulations.

 

[sauer]

George,

Very nice rig. Congradulations.

 

[Jack Lawman]

quote:Originally posted by Mark


My brother in law lives in New York State and I believe the problem is not that the ffl isn't recognized but that state law requires a judge to approve a seperate license for every handgun. So to comply with state law you must get the judge to approve each gun so a C&R ffl won't help you get past the state law approval process.

In New York, there is no requirement to "approve" each handgun purchase, however, ALL handguns must be registered to the owner's pistol permit (a NY State permit issued by county of residence). In order to register pistol on a New York pistol permit, the pistol must come from either a NYS 01 dealer or be previously registered in the state and transferred between permit holders. You must be an 01 dealer in order to possess an unregistered handgun in NY and it must be recorded in your book. An 03 C&R FFL is meaningless in NY with respect to handguns.

Additionally, counties are legally permitted to enact restrictions on firearms dealers over and above those put forth by the Feds or the State. My friend in Nassau County, an 01 FFL holder, is restricted from dealing in handguns by the county government. He could have applied for a handgun endorsement, but they required him to make signficant (read costly) changes to his retail premise for added "security". He deals only in long guns.

As far as I know (except in NYC), with regard to long guns, an 03 C&R license conveys all the same priveleges to New York citizens as it does to the rest of the country... but ONLY with regard to long guns.

Jack

 

[Jack Lawman]

quote:Originally posted by Mark


My brother in law lives in New York State and I believe the problem is not that the ffl isn't recognized but that state law requires a judge to approve a seperate license for every handgun. So to comply with state law you must get the judge to approve each gun so a C&R ffl won't help you get past the state law approval process.

In New York, there is no requirement to "approve" each handgun purchase, however, ALL handguns must be registered to the owner's pistol permit (a NY State permit issued by county of residence). In order to register pistol on a New York pistol permit, the pistol must come from either a NYS 01 dealer or be previously registered in the state and transferred between permit holders. You must be an 01 dealer in order to possess an unregistered handgun in NY and it must be recorded in your book. An 03 C&R FFL is meaningless in NY with respect to handguns.

Additionally, counties are legally permitted to enact restrictions on firearms dealers over and above those put forth by the Feds or the State. My friend in Nassau County, an 01 FFL holder, is restricted from dealing in handguns by the county government. He could have applied for a handgun endorsement, but they required him to make signficant (read costly) changes to his retail premise for added "security". He deals only in long guns.

As far as I know (except in NYC), with regard to long guns, an 03 C&R license conveys all the same priveleges to New York citizens as it does to the rest of the country... but ONLY with regard to long guns.

Jack

 

[George]

Dear Sauer:

Thanks, I was very lucky to run into the Sauer 38H. It truly is an amazing pistol. I would say that for the 3-4 years it saw service, it was hardly fired. The blueing on barrel is barley worn.

I forgot to say where it came from. The guy who sold it got rid of all his guns due to failing eye sight and cant shoot.

The gun came from this guys father-in-law who passed away 4 years ago. He brought it back to the states as a War Trophy after WW11. To be in this condition after 62 years is amazing. He must have cherished this pistol and keep it well oiled over the years to be in this condition.

By the way Sauer, where would a Sauer in a 1942 black holster been sent to. I have not yet received my copy of Volume 1?

Regards,

George

 

[George]

Dear Sauer:

Thanks, I was very lucky to run into the Sauer 38H. It truly is an amazing pistol. I would say that for the 3-4 years it saw service, it was hardly fired. The blueing on barrel is barley worn.

I forgot to say where it came from. The guy who sold it got rid of all his guns due to failing eye sight and cant shoot.

The gun came from this guys father-in-law who passed away 4 years ago. He brought it back to the states as a War Trophy after WW11. To be in this condition after 62 years is amazing. He must have cherished this pistol and keep it well oiled over the years to be in this condition.

By the way Sauer, where would a Sauer in a 1942 black holster been sent to. I have not yet received my copy of Volume 1?

Regards,

George

 

[sauer]

George,

There's no way of telling where a certain hoster or gun went to. Everything was shipped to a central depot, and issued according to need. The first in, first out idea never made it into practice, hence early date Lugers and holsters in mint condition. Black holsters were issued to municipal police units ans the SS, while brown holsters were issued to rural police units. It was a case of whatever got grabbed off the shelf, and so the miss-matched gun and holser dates.