Spandau Lugers

18768 Views 113 Replies 28 Participants Last post by Edward Tinker, May 26, 2007

Gregk

Discussion Starter · Nov 16, 2003

In a recent thread, it was noted that the integrity of Spandau Lugers should be viewed with much suspicion. As a relatively new collector, I am wondering exactly when the Spandaus first surfaced within the Luger collecting community, and was there a single "discoverer" of this alleged variation? Does anybody remember?

Thanks

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Edward Tinker

· #2 · Nov 16, 2003

Many years ago, it was first mentioned in writing (of a book) I believe in Jone's book if I remember correctly. So since it was many years ago, it is hard to pin down. Further Spandau was actually a repair facility for the military, but not a manufacturer, that is why there is doubt about Spandau marked guns. It makes sense that they might have "repaired" them, but why bwould they have "made" them?

Possibly other collectors with more experience can give some further information?

Ed

Mike Jones

· #3 · Nov 16, 2003

Ed,

The only mention in Jones is on page 304 as follows
"1914 Spandu: The ones I examined were not factory original."

Greg,

The Spandu frist appered early 1964 discovered by two collectors? One is still alive and well.

Regards,
Mike

Edward Tinker

· #4 · Nov 16, 2003

Thanks Mike, it is nice having you here, the comment "not factory original" makes sense to me. So after 1964, did these Spandaus appear?

Ed

G

· #5 · Nov 26, 2003

Greg,
If you will e-mail me your address I will send you a copy of an article that I have on Spandau Lugers, the article is several years old, but interesting none the less...

Best Regards, Brandon

garfield

· #6 · Nov 26, 2003

quote:Originally posted by Weimar_Police

Thanks Mike . . . So after 1964, did these Spandaus appear?
Ed

Posted earlier by Mike.

quote:Originally posted by cgallery

The Spandu frist appered early 1964 discovered by two collectors? One is still alive and well.
Regards,
Mike

Edward Tinker

· #7 · Nov 26, 2003

Was trying to get other collectors to say outright, that in their opinion that Spandaus appeared afterwards.

But you are right Garfield, Mike was fairly clear in his meaning.

Thanks,

Ed

klaus

· #8 · Nov 27, 2003

quote:Originally posted by Gregk

In a recent thread, it was noted that the integrity of Spandau Lugers should be viewed with much suspicion. As a relatively new collector, I am wondering exactly when the Spandaus first surfaced within the Luger collecting community, and was there a single "discoverer" of this alleged variation? Does anybody remember?

Thanks

Gregk,

The Spandau Luger was listed under "Varia and Curiosa" in Joachim Goertz's book "Die Pistole 08".
According to Goertz, there has never been a production of P08's in Spandau, Danzig, Amberg or the Bosch company. Not even the slightest shred of evidence or document ever turned up to indicate a Luger production in Spandau especially.
No Spandau Lugers were reported in Germany, only by dealers and collectors in the US. Several Spandau Lugers were checked by a German expert here in the US and found bogus.

Source, Die Pistole 08, page 279, by Joachim Goertz.

Klaus

Doubs

· #9 · Nov 28, 2003

FWIW, Fred Datig reports the Spandau Luger as being "hearsay" with only a single example being "reported" (but not seen by him) in his 1962 edition of "The Luger Pistol". From his description of the information, it sounds as if reports of their existence had been circulating since at least the late 1950's. The specific page can be found in the index under "Spandau".

Somewhere I recall reading an account of a German NCO on the Eastern front who not only remembered carrying a Spandau Luger but even remembered the serial number. According to the story he was wounded and the pistol went missing while he was in hospital recovering. Again, this is hearsay and not to be taken seriously.

It's interesting that examples only appeared for examination after Mr. Datig's book was published (with a drawing of the Spandau stamp on the toggles) and for the moment the evidence - or lack of evidence - indicates that existing Spandau Lugers are fakes, pure and simple.

Heinz

· #10 · Nov 28, 2003

I have handy the 1962 revision of Datig's book. The Spandau is noted as "hersay" on p 257 and a hypothetical drawing in included on pg 312.

I also have a copy of Shattucks "Lugers of Ralph Shattuck" ( or something close to that) that I cannot lay my hands on at the moment. My recollection is that Ralph was much more enthusiatic about the existence of Spandau Lugers in that book, noting that several had been verified at a NAPA show. This is subject to the vagaries of my memory and I would appreciate a correction/confirmation from anyone who has the book handy.

My personal opinion is they are an example of the lengths that waffentamp USA will go to make a buck.

garfield

· #11 · Nov 29, 2003

quote:Originally posted by Heinz

I
I also have a copy of Shattucks "Lugers of Ralph Shattuck" ( or something close to that) that I cannot lay my hands on at the moment. My recollection is that Ralph was much more enthusiatic about the existence of Spandau Lugers in that book, noting that several had been verified at a NAPA show.

Regarding the comments found in 'Lugers of RS'; I don't believe that any one doubts the 'existence' of the Spandau Luger. There are definately some P08s out there possessing Spandau markings. The pertinent questions would seem to be, what were these "several" pistols verified as being and who were the verifiers?

Heinz

· #12 · Nov 29, 2003

Bill, since I seem to be the only person on this forum who will admit to owning that book I am trying to find it so I can be more precise in my language. My impression is that Shattuck presented these as products of a Spandau origin with an authentic Spandau stamp. I am hoping to confirm or refute my impression. As to who the verifiers were, I am quite sure he does not report that.
Back to looking

Frank

· #13 · Nov 29, 2003

Heinz, you can quit looking. This is an exact copy from Shattuck's Book!!

"Some believe that in 1918, 200 Spandau stamped P.08s were assembled from left over parts or parts that failed proof in the desperate days before the last Great Offensive. Most Spandau P.08s are marked 1918, but as they are made up of parts that failed proof, almost any war date is conceivable. The temptation to transform a $500 Erfurt into a $20,000 Spandau may prove irresistible to the stamp and lathe jockeys. The Erfurt crown on the toggle is very similar to the supposed Spandau crown, A partially completed Erfurt toggle or the application of a welder and a Spandau stamp and viola! The rough late war finish and the assemblage of mismatched parts all conspire to conceal the sin. The National Automatic Pistol Collectors Association convention, Midland Odessa, Texas, authenticated 6 Spandau Lugers at the show. Value $20,000 to 25,000."

Heinz

· #14 · Nov 29, 2003

Frank, thank you. I finally did find my copy but cosidering the poor quality of my typing you did a better job of it.

Bill, my point is that some dealers are encouraging a market in "Spandau" Lugers while being somewhat obtuse about how bonafide they are. As we note above, apparently the whole convention authenticated these

but we do not know if they were authenticated as authentically produced by Spandau

But in any case they are supposed to be worth upwards of $20,000 with the deaths head marked navy variation going for somewhat more.

Jan C Still

· #15 · Nov 30, 2003

I looked at one Spandau Luger many years ago and do not in any way consider myself qualified to judge their credibility on the basis of that one look. However, I can pass on what other knowledgeable collectors that have examined Spandau’s, have stated.

“The National Automatic Pistol Collectors Association convention, Midland Odessa, Texas, authenticated 6 Spandau Lugers at the show. Value $20,000 to 25,000." (Lugers of Ralph Shattuck page 27)

Who at that Convention authenticated the Spandau’s? How did the Convention authenticated the 6 Spandau Lugers at the show? I think that a lot of the NAPCA members/Luger collectors at that Convention would be very surprised to discover that they somehow were involved in authenticating the extremely questionable Spandau Lugers.

David Ginsburg is a prominent Luger collector/former AUTOMAG member that specializes in Simson and Erfurt Lugers (see page 35, Weimar Lugers). He attended the NAPCA Convention at Midland Odessa,Texas. He told me that the only proponents of the Spandau Lugers at the Convention were the Spandu owners. He examined the Spandau Lugers at the Convention and told me that in his opinion they were all replicas.

Its my understanding that Kenyon, in a more recent AUTOMAG CONVENTION in Tennessee, expressed the opinion that all the Spandau Lugers were fakes (This information is second hand. I was not at that Convention and stand to be corrected if I made a misstatement).

Shown on page 79 of Imperial Lugers is Spandau Luger, serial number 12. It was not at the NAPCA Convention at Midland Odessa, Texas. Its owner, Steve Fox, is a long time seasoned collector with a sterling reputation. He is a very credible collector. I discussed his Spandau with him recently. He purchased it many, many, years ago, he believes that it is correct. Don Rousseau told me that over his collecting lifetime he has examined a number of Spandau’s, including that of Steve Fox. He stated “ If any of the Spandau’s are correct its Steve Fox’s (November 29, 2003).
Jan

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huggiebear

· #16 · Nov 30, 2003

I certainly can verify the statement that Mr.Charles Kenyon made concerning the Spandau lugers. Mr. Kenyon has a policy , or his law if you will, of not passing judgement on a questionable pistol , especially if doubt is in question. He will simply hand the pistol back to the owner and say it looks interesting, but at the NAPCA Convention dinner in Chattanooga 4 years ago , after being pressured repeatedly about his opinion of whether or not the Spandau lugers were real finally made the statement that in his opinion all the Spandau lugers were fakes. His words , not mine.

garfield

· #17 · Nov 30, 2003

quote:Originally posted by Heinz

But in any case they are supposed to be worth upwards of $20,000 with the deaths head marked navy variation going for somewhat more.

I wonder what a Death's Head marked Navy variation "Spandau" with the Kaiser's initials inked inside the grips would go for?

cpw

· #18 · Nov 30, 2003

quote:Originally posted by garfield

quote:Originally posted by Heinz

But in any case they are supposed to be worth upwards of $20,000 with the deaths head marked navy variation going for somewhat more.

Click to expand...

I wonder what a Death's Head marked Navy variation "Spandau" with the Kaiser's initials inked inside the grips would go for?

Probably in excess of $25,000. The initials give it the added flavor.

garfield

· #19 · Nov 30, 2003

quote:Originally posted by cpw
Probably in excess of $25,000. The initials give it the added flavor.

Well, I don't have a Navy variation death's head. Matter of fact, it isn't a "Spandau. BUT, it does have the initials "KB" inked inside of the grips and I reckon they have to be Kaiser Bill's because the pistol is nickled. All I have to do is get it "verified".

See 'Lugers of RS', p. 38 for the deaths head and p. 44 for the chromed luger.

Frank

· #20 · Nov 30, 2003

From actual records we know there were some .45 cal Lugers produced for the US Army tests. We also know there are just a few remaining.

The Spandau Lugers don't seem to have credible records regarding any being made. The fact that there "may" be one out there that "could" be legitimate, has to lead me to the conclusion that they are all illegitimate.

I think I would rather buy Garfield's Chrome Plated Navy with KB marks than a fake Spandau. Bill, this is not an offer!!!

Just my 2 cents worth!!

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