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quote:Originally posted by Frank


I think I would rather buy Garfield's Chrome Plated Navy with KB marks than a fake Spandau. Bill, this is not an offer!!!

Just my 2 cents worth!!
Frank:

You dirty dog! You made my heart skip a beat there. For a fleeting second I thought that I had a chance to pass on that "treasure".
 
quote:Originally posted by garfield

quote:Originally posted by Frank


I think I would rather buy Garfield's Chrome Plated Navy with KB marks than a fake Spandau. Bill, this is not an offer!!!

Just my 2 cents worth!!
Frank:

You dirty dog! You made my heart skip a beat there. For a fleeting second I thought that I had a chance to pass on that "treasure".

Perhaps he is just trying to lay a basis for a little haggling.
 
In the thread on Kl. 1933 Lugers the article by Joe Wotka and Nico Van Gijn, in the November "Automag", was referenced. In it, they mention contemporary liability laws requiring rework arsenals to identify their work (thus VoNo and Anschutz [and I might also include Frankenschloss]. Their citation has made me wonder about an associated topic. Wotka and Van Gijn do not specify what law it was which mandated reworkers "sign" their work, or how old the law was.

WAG speculation follows--

I have observed that regulations relating to P-08 often were formulated early on--Imperial-era regulations--but continued in force through the Weimar period and on into WWII. I wonder if the same, or similar, law was in force during WWI; and if it might have motivated the Spandau arsenal to toggle-mark Lugers which they reworked, to identify their work and conform to this law? This could explain the marking as from a known arsenal rework source without invoking the actual manufacture of pistols.

--Dwight
 
I own Spandau #27 that was shown by Schattuck in Odessa. I obtained the Spandau in 1998 from Jerry Kramer. He bought it from Schattuck.
Frederick J Pack
Wilkeson, WA

quote:Originally posted by Frank

Heinz, you can quit looking. This is an exact copy from Shattuck's Book!!

"Some believe that in 1918, 200 Spandau stamped P.08s were assembled from left over parts or parts that failed proof in the desperate days before the last Great Offensive. Most Spandau P.08s are marked 1918, but as they are made up of parts that failed proof, almost any war date is conceivable. The temptation to transform a $500 Erfurt into a $20,000 Spandau may prove irresistible to the stamp and lathe jockeys. The Erfurt crown on the toggle is very similar to the supposed Spandau crown, A partially completed Erfurt toggle or the application of a welder and a Spandau stamp and viola! The rough late war finish and the assemblage of mismatched parts all conspire to conceal the sin. The National Automatic Pistol Collectors Association convention, Midland Odessa, Texas, authenticated 6 Spandau Lugers at the show. Value $20,000 to 25,000."
 
I would like to add this:

LUGER MANUFACTURERS
While DWM was the main manufacturer of Luger pistols eventually other companies were brought in to cope with the war time demand. These included the following company names that are usually stamped on the top of the rear toggle:

DWM (Deutsche Waffen & Munitionsfabriken)-- Karlsrube, Germany

Erfert, Royal Arsenal-- Erfert, Germany

Spandau--Spandau, Germany

Simpson & Company-- Suhl, Germany

Mauser--Obendorf, Germany

Krieghoff, H. Krieghoff Waffenfabrick-- Suhl, Germany
Several foreign companies were licensed to make Lugers:
Vickers Ltd-- Vickers-Armstrong Ltd, England

Waffenfabrick Bern-- Bern, Switzerland.

This is from:
http://www.handgunsmag.com/featured_handguns/po8_luger/

They recognize that Spandau was a MANUFACTURER.

Fred
 
they are wrong.

It is highly unlikely that Spandau made lugers. It is possible, although unlikely that some toggles were made / stamped as Spandau.

I know that there was a gun collecting show where they said that there are 6 or 7 known / real Spandau's, but I personally find it unlikely, as does many collectors to have new made / manufactured Spandau lugers.

New manufacturer would take hundreds of thousands of marks for the tooling (and specific tooling required for luger manufacture, so Spandau being an arsenal rebuild facility would be immaterial). As an example; Simson received their tooling at no cost to themselves from the Erfurt factory, this is documented in their 1920's contract. They simply did not want to, nor did they feel they could afford the manufactuer of the tooling, and this was for what was eventually a 12,000 gun contract. If Spandau had made complete guns, then there would be thousands of them remaining, not a handful.


Ed

PS: As another example of where handguns.mag.com is wrong; Vickers put DWM parts together, but did not "make" lugers.
 
“The National Automatic Pistol Collectors Association convention, Midland Odessa, Texas, authenticated 6 Spandau Lugers at the show. Value $20,000 to 25,000." (Lugers of Ralph Shattuck page 27)

Who at that Convention authenticated the Spandau’s? How did the Convention authenticated the 6 Spandau Lugers at the show? I think that a lot of the NAPCA members/Luger collectors at that Convention would be very surprised to discover that they somehow were involved in authenticating the extremely questionable Spandau Lugers.

David Ginsburg is a prominent Luger collector/former AUTOMAG member that specializes in Simson and Erfurt Lugers (see page 35, Weimar Lugers). He attended the NAPCA Convention at Midland Odessa,Texas. He told me that the only proponents of the Spandau Lugers at the Convention were the Spandu owners. He examined the Spandau Lugers at the Convention and told me that in his opinion they were all replicas.

Its my understanding that Kenyon, in a more recent AUTOMAG CONVENTION in Tennessee, expressed the opinion that all the Spandau Lugers were fakes (This information is second hand. I was not at that Convention and stand to be corrected if I made a misstatement).

The below statement is from John James (Huggiebear)
"I certainly can verify the statement that Mr.Charles Kenyon made concerning the Spandau lugers. Mr. Kenyon has a policy , or his law if you will, of not passing judgement on a questionable pistol , especially if doubt is in question. He will simply hand the pistol back to the owner and say it looks interesting, but at the NAPCA Convention dinner in Chattanooga 4 years ago , after being pressured repeatedly about his opinion of whether or not the Spandau lugers were real finally made the statement that in his opinion all the Spandau lugers were fakes. His words , not mine."
Repeated from posts above.
Jan
 
I have handled hundreds, if not thousands of Lugers over about 32 years. I am not a recognized Luger expert in any way, but I would have to strongly say this Spandau marked luger is a fake. Most obviously, the SPANDAU is marked crooked and off center, which is a glaring fault. The other obvious thing I notice is the "inspection" mark on the rear link is stamped in a dished out area. It appears the original marking may have been ground out, with a dremel type tool, and then the new mark stamped in its place. Also, if you look at the toggle center pin retaining pin, which goes in vertically in the left toggle knob top, the pin has obviously been out of there, reinstalled then appears to have been staked in place, leaving the metal bright colored. A normal factory installed pin is put in, machined even with the knob surface then blued with the rest of the part. The retaining pin would have to be removed to remove the center pin to replace the toggle link with the Spandau marked one. And since the toggle link would have had to be an original link, that was machined to remove the original marking then remarked with the Spandau mark, it would also have to be re-inspection marked. I believe that is where the Crown/K mark has come from, necessitating the rear link needing ground and remarked and additional marks placed on the right receiver to match the toggle inspection marks. Another mark against this pistol is the extra inspection marks on the right side of the receiver. Spandau, being a Prussian Government Arsenal, would have had an inspection process similar to, or exactly like Erfurt, which was also a Government Arsenal. So why the extra 2 inspection marks? No Spandau Gewehr 98 has extra inspection marks. I know, because I had one a number of years ago.

This pistol appears to be nothing but an Erfurt Luger, with a spurious Spandau marked toggle and remarked other parts. Along with a hefty price tag. There has never been ANY documented evidence of a true Spandau Luger, beyond magazine articles which don't offer any real, documented proof. Also, in post WW1 reports of Allied inspections of Spandau Arsenal, no Luger production machinery was found. I believe this was reported by Walter. The only known (German) machinery at the time was possessed by DWM and Erfurt, and the Erfurt machinery went to Simson then later to Krieghoff. DWM kept their machinery until later selling it to Mauser. From there I am not sure where it went.
 
Mark has posted a very learned opinion of his take of the photographs posted by Fred. Though he could be 100% correct, one will never know. First off, the rear toggle pin is often in the white and is taken as a mark of original finish when it is. The "Spandau" logo is not that much off level. I agree the pistol looks much like an Erfurt military issue. I believe that this piece COULD be a re-worked Erfurt by Spandau. Though controversial, it may be a legitimate rework piece. Certainly, for the investment of $20K in such a pistol, the hope is that the future will remain uncertain for this variation (if that is what it is) and that some collector will be willing to add it to his collection at some distant time.
 
Some questions to ask :

1. Have any Spandau Lugers been known to surface in any other countries, originally, outside the USA.

2. If not, does it seem likely for them to ONLY surface in the USA ?

3. When did the Spandaus begin to surface here in the USA ? In the late 1980's or early 1990's ?

4. If only during this time period, why hadn't some surfaced in the 1960's or 1970's ?
 
The answer´s simple. If the US market wants Spandau Lugers, it´ll get them. But I can assure you (I live just around the corner from Spandau) that none were ever made there. Some may well have been re-conditioned in the Spandau arsenal. But none would have had a Spandau toggle link stamp. The Spandau fortress has a well respected historical society and they agree that there are no authentic Spandau Lugers. On the other hand, just keep on discussing the matter and more and more Spandau Lugers will appear - as if from nowhere. Magic!!
 
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