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doc, Jan Still said the same thing on page 2...
quote:
A long time reliable collector/dealer has reported observing such SPANDAU middle toggle links in a workshop (along with other fake parts). This workshop has been around almost 40 years (the workshop owner is now deceased).

All that would be required to create one of these SPANDAU Lugers would be the SPANDAU marked and accepted middle toggle link and a 1917 or 1918 dated Erfurt Luger. The serial number and letter suffix could be scrubbed from the front of the frame and the serial number scrubbed from the left receiver and barrel. The new two or three digit serial numbers (using the last two digits originally on most parts) could be engraved (crude) or stamped (better). If the Luger had a two digit date the restamping or engraving would be much simpler. The additional two acceptance stamps could be added to the right receiver in a similar way.
 
While I think most of us would agree with Doc's primary point - that idle gossip is usually not very constructive; I disagree that it should be completely discouraged or made unmentionable. If relevant, the credibility of the evidence is for the audience to judge. And yes, making blanket statements without supporting names and places leaves much to be desired regarding believeability.
But isn't learning sometimes accomplished by someone making an unsupported statement; theory; or uneducated observation soon to be followed up by someone else contradicting, analyzing, or supporting the notion? Haven't we made circumstantial assumptions regarding Ku marks, death's head marks, serial number ranges, change-over dates for strawing, grips, etc.?
We all know going into this thread that the authenticity of Spandaus is questioned. And yes, if I were fortunate enough (or unlucky enough) to own a Spandau, then I would get a nauseating feeling when I read posts stating that a lot of Spandaus were boosted. I think everyone who has followed this thread from the sidelines, deeply admires the tenacity of Spandau owners such as FriendlyFred and the critical observations of those who question the genuineness of the lineage. Along with the many others, I have watched this heated debate carried out in a gentlemanly manner with both vigor and decorum.
I say: Don't squelch any source of information. Let the fur fly! Continue this interesting debate! I want to hear about Spandaus! I want to hear both facts AND theories.
And finally a redundant question: Has a Spandau been seen anywhere on the planet at any time, in use, in a photo or collection, outside of the U.S.?
Also, when is the first mention of the Spandau? and what book, article, or document was it contained?
 
As Doc said, facts speak for themselves, and we want 1st hand not 2nd hand information. That said, Jan's "2nd" hand is pretty sound word; I am sure he knows the collector who he speaks of, he just does not desire to "name, names".

"Generally, it is best to know, not speculate, that said, theories are always welcomed, it is when folks start to say, my cousin heard that your sister said...


Ed
 
Believe Jan and I are talking about the same person reporting the fakery, cause I know the the person I am talking about knows Jan. I would rather not reveal his name as he is still an active collector. I trust him and have no reason to doubt his report of the fakery. I did not see Jans comment on page 2 till it was pointed out. As I stated the report of fakery only means there are fake Spandaus it is not clear proof there are not some real ones though it does beg the question how would you tell the differance? I used to collect Japanese pistols and there are a lot of Lugers out there with Mums on them. They are all fake yet they trade at high dollar prices all the time.
 
I am by no means anyone to speculate on the validity one way or the other of Spandau Lugers. However, in my view, a "Head in the Sand" attitude isn't going to gain anything toward proving or disproving their existance. Whether it is hearsay or a fairy tail, all evidence one way or the other should be heard. Just because someone's feelings may be bruised or the realization that they don't have what they think they had should not enter into the equation. In fact, the damage accrued or caused by not hearing all evidence could be far greater, in my estimation. No one wants to hear that they may have been duped, but reality is often a hard teacher. I know from experience, as do many who play this game.

Ron
 
We´ve had the `Spandau Luger´ and the `Danzig Luger´. I think the market´s ready for an `Amberg Luger´. The mind boggles at the thought of what collectors in a few hundred years are sure to make of the US made Lugers.
 
Gentlemen, I would point out that in the 1965 article that I uploaded to the group, one of the lugers examined WAS</u> pointed out to be a fake.

There will always be someone out for a fast illegal buck, so I do not doubt that some jerk had a workshop turning out fake Spandaus.

I did my homework before purchasing my Spandau in 1998. It had been owned by a very knowlegable, and respected collector.

Before purchasing it, I checked with Ralph and some others who had REAL</u>Spandaus,and to satisfy the skeptics is will add presumably real Spandaus.

I could have purchased several others that were on the market, but I THOUGHT </u></u>they were fakes.

There will always be controversy. I wish that each of you doubting Thomas' could hold this beautiful weapon in your hands. Any doubt would vanish....PERIOD.

Jan is going to try and come for a visit for a hands on inspection and extensive photographs.

Temper your remarks about other fakes showing up with other names. It only detracts from what, in all sincerity, is an authentic rare luger and the discussion involved.

Fred
 
Fred,

If you have been around the collecting game for some time, you might appreciate the fact this your opening statement, below, may well fill some folks with doubt.

" I own Spandau #27 that was shown by Schattuck in Odessa. I obtained the Spandau in 1998 from Jerry Kramer. He bought it from Schattuck. "

" Before purchasing it, I checked with Ralph..."

Having a previous owner/seller of a dubious/questionable/controversial piece tell you it is "legit" does not lend to optimum objectivity...
 
Hi Pete, Please note that I mention that I checked with SEVERAL other owners, respected collectors, and my own research. Ralph was the FIRST, but not the only person checked with before I purchased.
Your point is well taken. If I wanted to sell something badly, I would surely point out only the good points. BUT, Ralph did not own the gun when I bought it. Another expert did. Jerry had bought it from Ralph some time previously. Ralph has since obtained another Spandau to complete his collection.

Fred
 
I have no doubt that dealers and other previous owners might well be prepared to pronounce on the `authenticity´ of a `Spandau Luger´. And I can well believe that the dealer mentioned has been able to obtain a further `Spandau Luger´ to replenish his collection. But I cannot see that by holding and inspecting the gun, its authenticity could in any way be proven.
 
I'm also of the opinion that if you asked several owners of "Death's Head" SS 1941 Lugers if one you were interested in buying was "real", that they'd be more than happy to agree it was. Even more to the point, if Mr. A sold one to Mr. B and when you wanted to buy it from Mr. B you asked Mr. A if it was "real".....would he actually say it wasn't? If he DID, Mr. B might want to come after him, don't ya think?

What is troubling with the examples cited thus far is that there are only a few examples and yet we see some differences in them that would not lend much belief that they came off some assembly line. On the contrary, they would seem to have been fabricated from various parts and put together to "look" like each other. This makes it hard to believe that ALL of them are real even if one or two were actually produced under any possible circumstances in the Spandau factory during WWI.
 
OK, it is time for a little hardball.

How many of you people writing have ever held a Spandau, whether fake or real in your hands and personally examined it.

If you have, then you have cause to write your doubts or observations.

If you haven't, what right do you have to make assumptions on something you have never seen?

I have the gun in my hand and can, and have examined it very closely.
Have YOU? Think about that before you write next time.

Ticked off.
 
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