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Swiss Mauser, # 3721v

5K views 21 replies 7 participants last post by  Joop van de Kant 
#1 · (Edited)
Swiss Mauser

New luger in my Swiss collection :

Some photos of my M1906/34 Swiss Mauser...serial number and proofs puts it around 1940 made-date.

M1906 style, SHORT frame, grip safety, matching serial numbers, un-numbered aluminum bottomed magazine...absolutely pristine, barrel bore has strong lands & groves but a bit of "frosting" in some areas.

Short frame may mean a left-over grip-safety frame of the short variety used for Portuguese Navy Lugers at Mauser at about the same time. The polished area at the thumb safety is cut deeply...probably to remove the old Portuguese marking of "Seguranca" in the left over frame before it was pushed into use for this commercial Swiss order.

Unusual Swiss stamping on the underside of the thumb safety lever; as shown in one of the photos. Maybe a Swiss replacement part...marked as " F27 + "


Opinions and critiques welcomed !


This is an odd gun, indeed...

1. It has a short frame/receiver...Swiss seemed to like the long framed M1906's. Actually...the type V short frame...from Professor Ron Wood's tutorial on frame styles on the Luger Forum...

2. It has the small Mauser Banner logo...which switched to the large Banner logo in the 1935-36 time frame.

3. It has three (3) Eagle/N proofs...which seemed to occur in the 1939 or 1940 time frame...

4. Receiver fork with its Swiss cross/sunburst crest may be a left-over from the DWM days that Mauser inherited. Lots of parts did go to Mauser from DWM. The receiver fork has the old DWM "pinwheel" that dates back to 1909 or so.

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#2 ·
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#6 · (Edited)
Hi Doc,

Ron Wood concluded my frame was forged for the grip safety design...not just added to a non-grip frame...

Bob Lewis held mine and compared it to his long frame he had at the show and with only 30-40 numbers separating the two. Bob said he liked mine as much as his...maybe mine a bit more. And he told me he had a similar short-framed one at his home, too.

Ron Wood posted that his friend John Eckert came to the Reno show after I left early and that John has a similar one to mine with its short frame/receiver...

I have a contact (Dr. Geoff Sturgess) in Europe that knows of 2 short-framed ones as well...
 
#8 ·
Pete,
A very nice and pristine Swiss Mauser banner you have there! I agree with you that it was assembled around 1940, also in view of the eagle/N proofs.

- The Mauser banner v - series are for collectors a source of constant confusion. I do have some so called 'Latvian contracts' in my collection, and there are two 1936 marked Lugers with a serial number close to yours. It gets more and more clear to me, that Mauser made batches of several 'contract' pistols, already marked all over, just waiting for the orders to arrive. We have seen that with the three lined Stoegers, with the Dutch Navies and now also with the Latvians. The only part that was screwed on at time of delivery was the barrel. This is my theory of course. But if this was indeed done so, it explains a lot!

- I wonder indeed why the Swiss struck the F 27 + mark on the lower side of the safety lever. That is indeed unusual, I never saw that before. I hope that someone knows why.

- It seems that either Mauser was not happy to be obliged to deliver the area under the safety lever 'in the blank', the Swiss way to show that the lever is up on 'fire', or may be it has been done later in Switzerland because Mauser forget to do it. But I think that the Swiss would have taken better care of the job.

- You know about the Swiss habit to take great care of their pistols. That included sometimes also a cosmetic facelift of the outlook of the pistol. That was an Army practise, and this is a commercial Luger, so I doubt if this Pistol got the same treatment; it stayed with its original coating to my opinion.

Congratulations with this rare piece.
Thank you for showing this to us.
 
#12 ·
Herbert,

Thanks for your support to my theory about the batches within the Banner 'v' series. Since June I am trying to put a coherent article together about the eight 'Latvian' contract banners I got from Eitan Feldmann's collection. The more I dig into the existing reports and old books, the more I get convinced that the 'v' series were sort of a garbage can for Mauser. It seems they used it for the existing DWM (BKIW) contracts they inherited, and also for new contracts that were established by Mauser itself between 1931 and 1940. I would not be surprised if we would find a double SN within the 'v' series, between two different ‘contracts’.
I intend to create a data base of all ‘v’ SN’s known. That might help us to understand better what Mauser indented and after all really achieved.
 
#13 ·
Thank you Joop. I look forward to your completing your task. The "v" series, especially the early numbers, are a mystery and not recorded. Jan Still's book Third Reich Lugers and Weimar Lugers show a few in the under 100 series, all with DWM logos on the rear toggle. Keep us Forum members informed.
 
#14 · (Edited)
I spoke in length with Doug Smith of FGS on the phone this week about this Mauser Swiss.

He was particularly interested in knowing if mine had an original reinforced frame or not.

I will make plans to bring this gun to the SE NAPCA event in TN this coming up August...where Doug will have an extensive display of v-series lugers...it will give Doug a chance to do a detailed inspection of my luger as well.

As a side note, Doug indicated the odd "F27+" stamping on the underside of my thumb safety is an arsenal replacement.
 
#18 ·
Pete,

My research on the Mauser commercial 'v' series is progessing steadily. New data makes me believe that the Lugers having SN's between 3708v and 3900v consisted of mostly Swiss commercials (22 reported) and some commercials (4 reported). All the reported pistols have a 4 3/4" 7.65mm barrel. The confusing part however is the fact that the proof stamps are not at all coherent with the expected time scedule (1936), they should have either a small C/U (sign that DWM parts were used), or a bigger C/U (sign that only Mauser parts were used). But I found also BP (Berner Probe, 4) and Eagle/N (11). One commercial has 1940 on the chamber.

Looking further up in the 'v' series I found only two more Swiss reported, in the 8000v range (1939). I have learned not to drop into speculations, but keep myself to the facts.
The facts are:
In view of the scattered proof marks, these pistols were assembled / delivered between 1936 and early 1940.
Some were delivered 'unproofed' by Mauser to the Swiss, who struck the BP proof.
The Swiss started to produce 06/29 Waffenfabrik Bern Lugers with a P prefix for commercial sales.

Furthermore, I have learned that Mauser did not throw away any part. Everything was used and sold, sooner or later. The 'v' series have many of this 'stock sales' examples. Well, by telling all this I have shown a little part of what I am going to present to the Napca audience in August, during the Chattanooga convention. That is also where I can see your 'corpus delicti' 3721v...
 
#20 · (Edited)
Hi Doug,

Interesting about your E25...

The stamping on the underside of the thumb safety lever is a bit different in that it reads as " F27 + ".

Based on the Eagle/Nitro proofs on my gun, it would date to April 1940 or later. A replacement part from year '27 would not make sense...IMO. Unless it was a part left over in CH somewhere and used many years later ?

Text Added : This was posted by Gerben in 2013 about the F27 marking, in another discussion thread.

http://luger.gunboards.com/showthread.php?34040-ID-safety-lever-swiss-contract&highlight=3721v

" According to the transfer papers that went from Bern to Mauser, the safety catch was produced by the company of H. Hösli in La Chau-de-Fonds. This does not offer an explanation for the marking, however.

The Swiss material lists do give us a description of F27, however. It is the steel type used in the construction
. "
 
#21 · (Edited)
Doc/Dwight,

Sorry to be so late posting a photo of the Swiss Mauser un-reinforced frame well :

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Text Added :

I believe all the M1900 and the M9096 DWM-Swiss lugers were long framed. Bern used the long frame pattern as well.

Same for the M1906/34 Mauser Swiss lugers. But mine has a short frame.

I have sent Doug Smith photos of my # 3721v Mauser Swiss luger and spoke with him at length on the phone and I will make arrangments to have it at the SE NAPCA event in TN this August. Doug really wants to see mine in person.

He had a chance to see another short-framed luger in a USA collector's collection but Doug felt that gun was problematic with evidence of a wavy top surface of the DWM toggle link where the Mauser Banner was stamped.

Around this time at Mauser the contract M1906/34 Portuguese lugers were being produced. Those are grip safetied, short framed lugers with un-reinforced frames as well.

I am entertaining a WAG that mine was made from a left-over frame of the Portguese run...

Simpsons LTD has two of these Portugese for sale now on their web site; one with serial # 25xxv and another with serial # 43xxv. My # 3721v falls in the middle of these.

http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_in...oducts_id=2240

The extra deep cut of the polished area on my # 3721v could possibly indicate the "Seguranca" was on my frame already and was "cut" deeply into its present polished safety area...but this is only a WAG...as I cannot see any reminents of the Portuguese wording.
 
#22 ·
Pete,

While studying for my Napca presentation I also had to look into the Mauser Banner Serial Numbers 3600v - 3900v. As I look to it now, Mauser produced a full day run of Swiss Frames; at that time the daily output was about 300 Lugers. The Swiss frames could be made but after changing some 20 appliances on the fairly standard machines at that time. Remember that the Swiss frame had the safety grip which implied some unusual tooling on the frames.
But, please pay also attention to the fact that the production had not as an aim to have 300 totally finished Lugers ready at seven 'o clock every evening. It seems that there were principally four separate production lines; frames, receivers, toggles + barrels and assembly - finishing. I assume that Mauser did produce only the Swiss Frames at that time, and serialized them between 3600v and 3900v.

When Mauser made these 300 'Swiss Model' frames back in 1935/1936, they started first to look if there were none left in the stock of old DWM frames that came with the move from Berlin/Wittenau to Oberndorf early 1930. Do not ask me why these had not been finished during the three earlier batches (525v-550v, 590v-600v and 1873v-1919v). Probably because Mauser knew that this large batch of 300 would be the last one for a long time.

Well, they were right this time. This batch was too large for the crimping Swiss commercial market. Only 1/3 is reported to have a Swiss Cross on the chamber, and I found three different proof marks, Cc/U, the Berner Probe and even the Eagel/N (used after mid 1940).

Yours is a special Luger. I expect that it might have one ore more 'brothers', these have not yet been reported, but the owners should know what to look for...
 
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